pilots admit falling asleep during flight

The responsibility lies a little on both sides. Many fatigue events are caused by the pilot, and many are caused by the company. And a mixture of the two is common.

More than anything we need better education about fatigue for both crew members and flight ops.

I'll settle for a comfy robe and some nice soft slippers in the cockpit.....

and some warm milk.
 
What kind of edumacation do you suggest? We got an FAA approved fatigue risk management plan. The end all be all fix to fatigue. It has a lot of great advice, such as drink coffee at TOD and keep your hotel room cool. Personally, I don't need to be educated. The company needs to address some of their scheduling practices. Throwing money at the cargo cutout, saying UPS pilot's work fewer hours a month, and "our pilots are used to night freight, so no worries"....that just doesn't cut it.
 
What kind of edumacation do you suggest? We got an FAA approved fatigue risk management plan. The end all be all fix to fatigue. It has a lot of great advice, such as drink coffee at TOD and keep your hotel room cool. Personally, I don't need to be educated. The company needs to address some of their scheduling practices. Throwing money at the cargo cutout, saying UPS pilot's work fewer hours a month, and "our pilots are used to night freight, so no worries"....that just doesn't cut it.

I can't speak to your pilot group, but many pilots don't truly understand the insidious nature of fatigue, and how to recognize it. It's like being drunk, literally, so when you are impaired your ability to recognize that impairment is impaired as well.

As someone who has actually run a fatigue program, I've read nearly 1,000 fatigue reports. The company surely contributed to their fair share, and schedulers are woefully undereducated about fatigue. But crew members had plenty of blame to go around. Probably 35%-40% of the fatigue events were pilot induced. From not resting when we have the opportunity to commuting the day of a trip, we often put ourselves at risk of fatigue. Often the choices on day one or two manifest themselves on day 4.

Anyway, my point is only that industry-wide we have a problem, and that problem is mostly one of understanding on both sides of the operation (pilot and company).
 
AC 120-103A goes into detail about how to create an FRMS, and the difference between the FRMP and the FRMS. The part 117 rest rules will require an FRMS if the company wants to apply for an equivalent level of safety to those regs. No one really knows what that exemption will entail yet.

A FRMS requires detailed fatigue reports from the crews, and requires the company to complete thorough data analysis route by route. It's going to be interesting to see what sort of fatigue programs are developed.
 
"commuting the day of a trip, we often put ourselves at risk of fatigue."

I can't disagree with you there. If you're gonna do that you better be sure you are the type that can go there and still be rested enough to get the job done. If you want to cross the country on Fedex at night and show in the morning, you need to be the type that can sleep all night on Fedex.

What kind of education do the crew schedulers need? They are just filling squares and plugging holes. Do you really expect a scheduler to tell a pilot his schedule is fatiguing? When pigs fly......
 
"commuting the day of a trip, we often put ourselves at risk of fatigue."

I can't disagree with you there. If you're gonna do that you better be sure you are the type that can go there and still be rested enough to get the job done. If you want to cross the country on Fedex at night and show in the morning, you need to be the type that can sleep all night on Fedex.

What kind of education do the crew schedulers need? They are just filling squares and plugging holes. Do you really expect a scheduler to tell a pilot his schedule is fatiguing? When pigs fly......

No, schedulers need to be able to recognize a schedule that is at risk. It isn't too much to expect a scheduler to be educated about the job that they do. A good fatigue program takes the examples where scheduling creates a fatigue situation, and builds training modules from them. Over time, they learn. You think they can't?

They need to understand the difference in "legal" and "safe." So when they have a choice between pilot A and pilot B, they should be able to choose the one that makes the most sense.

As pilots, we have the responsibility to watch out for each other, and ring the bell when the time comes.
 
"No, schedulers need to be able to recognize a schedule that is at risk. It isn't too much to expect a scheduler to be educated about the job that they do."

With all due respect, in my experience, that's simply ludicrous. I don't disrespect the skeds where I work. I understand what their job is and what they are trying to do. But to think they give a rip about Fatigue? Are you really suggesting a line sked should analyze an assignment for potential fatigue? What planet do you live on? You gotta be kidding me....
 
"No, schedulers need to be able to recognize a schedule that is at risk. It isn't too much to expect a scheduler to be educated about the job that they do."

With all due respect, in my experience, that's simply ludicrous. I don't disrespect the skeds where I work. I understand what their job is and what they are trying to do. But to think they give a rip about Fatigue? Are you really suggesting a line sked should analyze an assignment for potential fatigue? What planet do you live on? You gotta be kidding me....

If we want to truly reduce the risk of fatigue in the operation, then yes, everyone who interfaces with the schedules must be part of the solution. There's a reason the FRMS calls for training programs for all who interact with the schedules.

Don't be so defeatist!
 
Shame on us all for falling prey to a deliberately misleading title of a news article. Both pilots were not asleep simultaneously.

From the CAA website:

"There has been recent media commentary involving flight crew sleeping while in charge of an aircraft. These have been based on a report filed with the CAA by the airline concerned, subsequently released by the CAA following a request under the Freedom of Information Act.

Following clarification from the airline concerned, the CAA is satisfied that while this was a reportable event, and both pilots were concerned they were suffering symptoms of severe fatigue and took controlled rest separately, they did not fall asleep at the same time. It was right that the airline reported this to us after one of the pilots raised their concerns. The airline is now taking steps to adjust its rostering arrangements for flight crew.

The safety reporting procedures are designed to help us enhance aviation safety and ensure we base our actions on the best information available. Aviation safety is our number one priority and we will take all necessary action to ensure that reportable events are carefully considered and where problems are identified, lessons are learned.
For further media information contact the CAA Press Office on: 0207 453 6030; press.office@caa.co.uk."

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=14&pagetype=65&appid=7&mode=detail&nid=2287
 
I can't speak to your pilot group, but many pilots don't truly understand the insidious nature of fatigue, and how to recognize it. It's like being drunk, literally, so when you are impaired your ability to recognize that impairment is impaired as well.

As someone who has actually run a fatigue program, I've read nearly 1,000 fatigue reports. The company surely contributed to their fair share, and schedulers are woefully undereducated about fatigue. But crew members had plenty of blame to go around. Probably 35%-40% of the fatigue events were pilot induced. From not resting when we have the opportunity to commuting the day of a trip, we often put ourselves at risk of fatigue. Often the choices on day one or two manifest themselves on day 4.

Anyway, my point is only that industry-wide we have a problem, and that problem is mostly one of understanding on both sides of the operation (pilot and company).
When you experience it, you're all "damn, dude."
 
just because your given a rest period dose not mean your body is ready to accept it. you cant force your self to seep when your body dose not want to. i know i spent 30 years of rotating shift work with many back of the clock shifts!
 
just because your given a rest period dose not mean your body is ready to accept it. you cant force your self to seep when your body dose not want to. i know i spent 30 years of rotating shift work with many back of the clock shifts!
Quite so.

Incidentally...
 
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