IFR Requirements

FAA Order 8900.1 5-349 says:

A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91, §§ 91.109, 91.205, and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413. An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.
 
Came across this LOI recently

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2010/theriault - (2010) legal interpretation.pdf

It says that an aircraft doesn't need to be IFR certified to operate under IFR as long at they stay in VMC. It points to references, but I don't see how they came to that conclusion by reading those references. Can somebody shed some light?

This is true, I just did some investigation on this myself recently, talking with a DPE about what is required for IFR training aircraft. Basically as long as they airplane has a current static/altimeter/transponder inspection, then you can file IFR, but must remain in VMC. If your route will take you into clouds you must ask to divert or else cancel IFR and go VFR at that point.

This is how most helicopter instrument training is completed, as few light helicopters are legal for flight into IMC. Also, some aircraft like Diamond make "IFR trainers" that are not legal to operate in IMC, but are equipped with all of the instruments and avionics needed for a good trainer. They can use this to file and operate in the system, provided they remain in VMC.
 
Interesting. Where does it say that all that's required is a static system check for IFR?

91.205 (d) says that the "GRAB CARDD" list is needed for IFR, not IMC. I get that some Diamonds may not be approved for IMC, but I really don't see how they say that 91.205 (d) doesn't apply...
 
I'm curious about this as well, as I've heard different things from different CFIs. Can I file IFR in a 172 if I remain in VMC, but the static system/altimeter check is not current? What if it is for training?
 
Can I file IFR in a 172 if I remain in VMC, but the static system/altimeter check is not current? What if it is for training?

No. You cannot file an IFR flight plan unless the static system has been inspected. This is very clear in 91.411. It doesn't matter if its for training, no IFR unless the check has been done and documented.
 
Interesting. Where does it say that all that's required is a static system check for IFR?

91.205 (d) says that the "GRAB CARDD" list is needed for IFR, not IMC. I get that some Diamonds may not be approved for IMC, but I really don't see how they say that 91.205 (d) doesn't apply...

So what 8900.1 is saying is that for flight training, I can file IFR with a broken attitude indicator, as long as I remain VMC?

I don't see where you are getting that? Who says 91.205(d) doesn't apply? Here's the quote thevideographer pulled from FSIMS:

==============================
IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91, §§ 91.109, 91.205,[/QUOTE]
==============================

I hope you're not making the mistake of thinking that 91.205 is the be-all-and-end-all of requirements for VFR or IFR flight, although since you quoted a very, very bad mnemonic that typically leads to that error, it's certainly possible you are.

As an aside, although the Chief Counsel opinion talks about helicopters, I think the rule in FSIMS has its origin with the Diamonds which have all the 91.205 equipment but not static protection.
 
I don't see where you are getting that? Who says 91.205(d) doesn't apply? Here's the quote thevideographer pulled from FSIMS:

==============================
IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91, §§ 91.109, 91.205,
==============================

I hope you're not making the mistake of thinking that 91.205 is the be-all-and-end-all of requirements for VFR or IFR flight, although since you quoted a very, very bad mnemonic that typically leads to that error, it's certainly possible you are.

As an aside, although the Chief Counsel opinion talks about helicopters, I think the rule in FSIMS has its origin with the Diamonds which have all the 91.205 equipment but not static protection.[/quote]

The LOI says that you needn't be IFR certified to operate under IFR, and points to 91.205 as a reference. I don't see how that supports their assertion. 205 lists the equipment that's required. How does that suggest that you can file IFR without an IFR certified aircraft?

I'm willing to admit that I must be making some sort of mistake here. Apart from type-specific items, what other equipment is required for IFR?
 
You must operate under IFR to fly in IMC in controlled airspace, however you do not need to fly in IMC to operate under IFR.

Therefore its perfectly legal (and sometimes convenient) to fly a training aircraft that has all of the required equipment of 91.205 for IFR and the IFR static certification of 91.411 under an IFR flight plan, even though it's operating limitations prohibits operating in IMC.
 
==============================
I hope you're not making the mistake of thinking that 91.205 is the be-all-and-end-all of requirements for VFR or IFR flight, although since you quoted a very, very bad mnemonic that typically leads to that error, it's certainly possible you are.
==============================

I'm willing to admit that I must be making some sort of mistake here. Apart from type-specific items, what other equipment is required for IFR?
All of the equipment that is required for IFR flight under the IFR aircraft certification regs, the aircraft's type certificate, the aircraft's official required equipment list, the aircraft's "kinds of operations" equipment list for IFR flight and any ADs that limit IFR flight.

For example, you won't find even one piece of 91.205 equipment that is not on a DA20. OTOH, the DA20's POH "Kinds of Operations" limits it to VFR flight, at least in part, as I understand it, due to insufficient p-static protection as required under the applicable IFR certification regulations. As I recall, the original European-based certificate for the aircraft itself limits it to day vfr.

@rframe will probably chide me for my anti-mnemonic rant but this is exactly why I especially rant about the 91.205 memorization acronyms. You're left thinking that's all there is. The correct starting point isn't 91.205, but 91.213(d) (if the aircraft doesn't have a MEL) which lists what I put in the first paragraph of this answer.
 
@rframe will probably chide me for my anti-mnemonic rant

Not like mnemonics...what kind of aviator...what...the..........

Hey dont worry too much, I actually head of one other group of aviators who didn't like acronyms, you may have heard of them, they were called the Luftwaffe.

Dont forget to kick any puppies you see today, and if that nice old lady at the dinner offers you a fresh piece of apple pie after lunch, you should throw it on the floor.

:bounce::bounce::bounce:
 
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As an aside, although the Chief Counsel opinion talks about helicopters, I think the rule in FSIMS has its origin with the Diamonds which have all the 91.205 equipment but not static protection.

The DA-20 has all the equipment needed to fly IFR (and even IMC in an emergency) but it did not have any lightning protection built in. That was the only reason it was not certified for IMC flight.

When I was teaching in it, we all discussed that if we ever got stuck on top of the clouds we would have to declare an emergency to shoot an approach. We did use it for some instrument practice work on clear days.
 
Not like mnemonics...what kind of aviator...what...the..........@$%!

Hey dont worry:-( too much, I actually head of one other group of aviators who didn't like acronyms, you may have heard of them, they were called the Luftwaffe.

Dont forget to kick any puppies you see today, and if that nice old lady at the dinner offers you a fresh piece of apple pie after lunch, you should throw it on the floor.

:bounce::bounce::bounce:
Now I have an image of a sad old lady bursting into tears because someone threw her pie onto the floor. Thanks for ruining my day.
 
Thanks guys, I believe I've got it now. You may have the equipment to operate IFR, but not be approved for IMC, due to an AFM limitation. That's pretty simple to understand. I wish the LOI had used the term "IMC". Maybe it's just me, but I think that entire paragraph is poorly worded.

It really is a shame, because on day 1 of IFR class, I'm sure to explain the difference between IFR, IMC, VFR and VMC.
 
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