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I don't think I'm defeatist. I want better, but I also want to grow. I think a CBA will help in the very long term, but it will be a long slog through the swamp before we get there.

Also, if the vote started today, they would lose my vote for being stupid. Lets not go into lab conditions a few months before the new agreement comes out. If there aren't 15% raises in there, by all means lets get medieval on their asses.
 
kellwolf said:
And if that happens, we can talk about the wages then. Why demand to be paid long haul carrier wages when we're not a long haul carrier? That's realism, not defeatism. Or as I like to call it, being reasonable.
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Welllllll...to play Devil's advocate, why don't you ask a pre-2004 Chautauquanaut why you should try to imagine the possibilities. This is why I can't stand the idea that we're special because of the type of flying we do. Who cares? Management will win that part of negotiation almost every time. They know what the plan is. We don't. When we think we're getting a leg up on Lunar module rates, they're ready to sign the lease papers Mega Mars Transport Ships. And now we're stuck flying those at Lunar rates because we didn't have the foresight to negotiate that way. Who ever will??? We should get away from that.
 
kellwolf said:
And if that happens, we can talk about the wages then. Why demand to be paid long haul carrier wages when we're not a long haul carrier? That's realism, not defeatism. Or as I like to call it, being reasonable.
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Welllllll...to play Devil's advocate, why don't you ask a pre-2004 Chautauquanaut why you should try to imagine the possibilities. This is why I can't stand the idea that we're special because of the type of flying we do. Who cares? Management will win that part of negotiation almost every time. They know what the plan is. We don't. When we think we're getting a leg up on Lunar module rates, they're ready to sign the lease papers Mega Mars Transport Ships. And now we're stuck flying those at Lunar rates because we didn't have the foresight to negotiate that way. Who ever will??? We should get away from that.
 
falconvalley said:
Welllllll...to play Devil's advocate, why don't you ask a pre-2004 Chautauquanaut why you should try to imagine the possibilities. This is why I can't stand the idea that we're special because of the type of flying we do. Who cares? Management will win that part of negotiation almost every time. They know what the plan is. We don't. When we think we're getting a leg up on Lunar module rates, they're ready to sign the lease papers Mega Mars Transport Ships. And now we're stuck flying those at Lunar rates because we didn't have the foresight to negotiate that way. Who ever will??? We should get away from that.
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Excellent point!

As one of those pre-03 types, if you told me in '03 that 50 airplane 500 pilot Chautauqua would have turned into 230 airplane 2300 pilot RAH in '07 I would have suggested a whiz quiz due to reasonable suspicion. And I was one of the ones that saw an optimistic future.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Pilots shouldn't be subsidizing growth out of their own pockets. That's partly what has destroyed the regional segment of the profession.
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I don't see it as subsidizing from my own pocket. I went to a company with a low cost structure. That structure includes the pilot costs. If I wanted legacy pay, I would've held out for a legacy job.

I'm here for the QOL, not the pay. The QOL is exactly what I was looking for, so I feel like I got what I came here for. Does that not make sense?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
If that's the case, then that's even worse than being a defeatist.
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It's not that I don't care, exactly. It's that I'm happy with what I've got. I came here knowing that it wasn't a legacy, and I don't expect it to become one.

If things improve over time, that's great, as long as it doesn't put our growth or security into question.
 
kellwolf said:
And I think we do a lot of the same flying as his airline. However, including them in the peer set drags down what our average pay should be, which is why we're trying to keep them out. Now, if we could get a weighted peer set where it used how many pilots are at a carrier, it would be more fair. However, they way it's done on our pay scale is 5 year CA pay divided by number of airlines. So, Delta carries as much weight as Virgin America would if they were in our peer set, despite the fact that Delta has exponentially more pilots. It's not a shot against Virgin or Spirit pilots, it's just math.

And I've had pretty much the same experiences PhilosopherPilot has had. We still have a few over here that seem to think that once we get representation, the sun will shine, the healthcare will improve and they'll dive into money like Uncle Scrooge. The hard truth is getting representation is the start of a long, long uphill batter towards finally getting a CBA. I honestly don't think some of the guys have the stamina for a fight like that. Personally, I don't. ALPA sapped all the strength out of me at my last carrier. That doesn't mean I don't think it can or should be done. I just know I'm not gonna be one of the ones doing it.

The guys that kill me are the ones that came here furloughed from another carrier, got the quick upgrade and are now talking about how much better Delta/United/American is but won't accept recall. Well, which is it? I'm a big believer in if you're miserable, change something. If you're not happy going to work, make a change, be it another job or another position in the same company. I'm sure a lot of movement will happen over here once hiring ramps up at the other carriers, but it gets EXHAUSTING listening to people go on and on about how much their life sucks compared to the guy over at Delta.....who is likely telling HIS FO how much his life sucks compared to the guy at FedEx......
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You missed my point.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
It's not that I don't care, exactly. It's that I'm happy with what I've got. I came here knowing that it wasn't a legacy, and I don't expect it to become one.

If things improve over time, that's great, as long as it doesn't put our growth or security into question.
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He doesn't care, either.
 
Latest crew planning memo says each new 330 will require 10 CA and 15 FOs. They plan to hire those poeple late summer/ fall 2014. Sounds like hiring won't stop like rumors have stated
 
When it comes to the last several pages, WOW is all I have to say. By the same logic being thrown around here, I guess regional pilots shouldn't pursue higher wages and work rules lest they come at the expense of future contracts (growth,upgrade, etc). #failingtoseethedifference
 
When it comes to the last several pages, WOW is all I have to say. By the same logic being thrown around here, I guess regional pilots shouldn't pursue higher wages and work rules lest they come at the expense of future contracts (growth,upgrade, etc). #failingtoseethedifference

I'd apologize for the double post but reading it twice may do some good for a few of you.
 
Cav said:
When it comes to the last several pages, WOW is all I have to say. By the same logic being thrown around here, I guess regional pilots shouldn't pursue higher wages and work rules lest they come at the expense of future contracts (growth,upgrade, etc). #failingtoseethedifference
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BTW, I have a story about "our favorite captain" that I heard today. I'll text it to you when I get some time.

11,000 pilots and the same name comes up time and time again.
 
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Cav said:
When it comes to the last several pages, WOW is all I have to say. By the same logic being thrown around here, I guess regional pilots shouldn't pursue higher wages and work rules lest they come at the expense of future contracts (growth,upgrade, etc). #failingtoseethedifference

I'd apologize for the double post but reading it twice may do some good for a few of you.
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That's not what I said. Though yes, you CAN grow your contract to the point that it hurts your company as a whole.
 
Cav said:
When it comes to the last several pages, WOW is all I have to say. By the same logic being thrown around here, I guess regional pilots shouldn't pursue higher wages and work rules lest they come at the expense of future contracts (growth,upgrade, etc). #failingtoseethedifference
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No kidding. I don't quite understand everyone's fascination with growth. I'd rather work at a nice stable place that has figured out a concept that works. Growth is nice in that it adds a large amount of movement, but as long as I'm making a fair wage and my pay and QOL keeps slowly increasing, I really don't care about growth.
 
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