New PSA TA?

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amorris311 said:
Why does it seem to be the popular mantra from groups that its pinnacle's fault? Say pinnacle voted it down and Delta subsequently shut them down. That would be two airlines in less than a year. What do you think you guys would be voting on then?
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You're right. I am not making a determination of "fault." However, it is naive to think that what occured to the Pinnacle pilot group, by their management team (Delta, via proxy) does not have an impact on other companies.

The rates at Pinnacle have been reference by AMR for goodness sake, it is the reality - and not something that folks need to run from. More importantly, the pilot group leaders during that time period were obviously in a very tough spot but they shouldn't feel as if they have to defend what happened. So, stow the sabers. The damage is done and "mainline" partners know where the new bottom baseline is. As pilots, it may be smart for us to also recognize where the bottom is...and keep it there, rather than going deeper down the rabbit hole.

Or we can keep getting pissed off about it, to each other. When MBA's and "smart folk" publicly proclaim it, and it seems to be just a-okay!

Seggy said:
What a naive post.
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Yup.
 
surreal1221 said:
You're right. I am not making a determination of "fault." However, it is naive to think that what occured to the Pinnacle pilot group, by their management team (Delta, via proxy) does not have an impact on other companies.

.
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Of course. What happens to every pilot group has some sort of impact on the rest of the industry. But there has to be a recognition of the situation in which bankruptcy places a pilot group. Every negotiation and every vote takes place in the context of the leverage that is available. And in bankruptcy, that leverage is virtually nonexistent. Expecting a pilot group to ignore that reality is expecting them to sacrifice their own livelihoods for everyone else, even though the benefit to everyone else is debatable, since management still has most of the leverage in a fee-for-departure world, even without bankruptcy.
 
Absolutely. I hope you didn't expect any disagreement from me on that one.

I just find it somewhat disingenuous for us as pilots to be chastised for referencing the new Pinnacle baseline as reality. But also, more importantly, for highlighting that it is this very bottom baseline that other "mainline" companies are trying to push their "regional" partners towards. All the while, mainline companies are publicly referencing the very bottom established by Pinnacle.

Reality can not be ignored, but it also doesn't mean that when someone brings it up - that they are attacking or placing fault on the leaders of said pilot group.
 
Based on my previous observation of crewroom "lawyers" pontificating over our concessionary contract, and how "NO WAY AM I VOTING YES" straw poll. I would venture a guess that this POS TA is going to pass over at PSA. And, it is going to pass with a convincing majority of votes, because management is a very savvy and shrewd beast. USAirways Group will let this ride for a bit, get everyone all stirred up and sniping at one another, cold shouldering each other in the terminal and other sophomoric behavior. Then management will drop some kind of last second carrot into the mix in the shape of cash payouts to sway the vote.
It is very easy to blame ALPA, and to some extent there is some cultural issues in the way that ALPA's charter is formed that make it difficult for ALPA to shape these TAs. At the end of the day, it is still up to individual to vote his or her conscience. No matter which way this TA goes it is going to hurt some and help some.
 
surreal1221 said:
Reality can not be ignored, but it also doesn't mean that when someone brings it up - that they are attacking or placing fault on the leaders of said pilot group.
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Understood. But venture over to flightinfo and you have a forum of ASA pilots acting like asshats towards Pinnacle pilots for the TA. So you have to understand, the PCL guys are probably a bit sensitive to it. :)
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Understood. But venture over to flightinfo and you have a forum of ASA pilots acting like asshats towards Pinnacle pilots for the TA. So you have to understand, the PCL guys are probably a bit sensitive to it. :)
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I've heard a couple not-so-friendly stories from the ASA jumpseat as well.
 
I can only hope that ASA guys do deny jumpseats. Let them start the crap storm on the national jumpseat committee. Let it be the reason a flight cancels because a commuting crew member doesn't make it to work.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Understood. But venture over to flightinfo and you have a forum of ASA pilots acting like asshats towards Pinnacle pilots for the TA. So you have to understand, the PCL guys are probably a bit sensitive to it. :)
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Flight-what...? lol
 
surreal1221 said:
Flight-what...? lol
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lolwut.jpg


Yep... this is what I do now... post ironically useless pictures and memes on threads.

Back on reserve... oh yeah.
 
Out and Proud said:
I'm not here to make a decent wage at a regional. I understand what a regional is and what it's purpose is.... it's a stepping stone to the majors. I AM here to make a more than decent wage at a MAJOR. If that requires a few years of subpar wages at a regional, so be it. I don't plan on staying at the regional any longer than I have to.
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guh! guh! guh! Man what I want to say is could bring such bad joo joo, plus it would be bad for everybody else in the industry. This almighty CFI has no clue what has happend in the past decade to pilots who got stuck on the regional level. If this little guy had any idea about the last ten yrs, he might pull his head out from where the sun don't shine.
And FYI little dude, nobody ever planned on staying at a regional any longer than they had to, but poop happens.

Just think about it.
 
I'm a no vote. I wish I could say it was an easy decision, but it really wasn't. I predict if it doesn't pass someone else will end up with the airplanes and our future becomes very uncertain. I won't knock any other airline for previously lowering the bar because taking a look at your family and thinking about not being able to support them isn't fun. The race to the bottom is on and it will continue with or without us, as least I'll be able to look my girls in the eye and tell them their dad did the right thing.
 
Out and Proud said:
I'm not here to make a decent wage at a regional. I understand what a regional is and what it's purpose is.... it's a stepping stone to the majors. I AM here to make a more than decent wage at a MAJOR. If that requires a few years of subpar wages at a regional, so be it. I don't plan on staying at the regional any longer than I have to.
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Neither does ANYONE ELSE.

And every single captain at my airline has a story of why that plan got screwed over multiple times. How about we shoot for having EVERY airline pilot position pay a reasonable wage? Why should I have to eat for a few years in order to be paid in accordance with my level of responsibility?


I'll make you a deal. You don't de-value my career, and in return I won't punch you in the face.



Out and Proud said:
I've made some "personal" :) contacts with major airline pilots, some of whom are chief pilots and recruiters, through NGPA. They have told me they will help me personally when the time comes.
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If I had a dollar for every time I heard that, I could retire right now. Contacts help with getting the interview. I walked into the CP's office with a resume for a friend of mine a while back, when the application window had already closed. He got a call to set up an interview within a couple of days.

He didn't get hired. Sometimes things suck. You do realize that current airline pilots participate in the hiring process, right? Frequently it's ordinary line pilots. Being the guy that will vote pay-cuts for others in order to get a quicker upgrade in an over-grown RJ is likely the quickest way to move you to the "DO NOT WANT!" list.

Out and Proud said:
According to your story, If this guy wasn't an idiot and hadn't bent metal, it sounds like his contact at the major would have paid off. For me, it's a gamble worth taking. I will not be a regional lifer.
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Because every guy who has ever bent metal is an idiot. Right. Shall I start listing the great aviators both past and present who have piled one in?

There's not a single regional lifer who exists who thought they would be a regional lifer.
 
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pete2800 said:
Neither does ANYONE ELSE.

And every single captain at my airline has a story of why that plan got screwed over multiple times. How about we shoot for having EVERY airline pilot position pay a reasonable wage? Why should I have to eat for a few years in order to be paid in accordance with my level of responsibility?


I'll make you a deal. You don't de-value my career, and in return I won't punch you in the face.




If I had a dollar for every time I heard that, I could retire right now. Contacts help with getting the interview. I walked into the CP's office with a resume for a friend of mine a while back, when the application window had already closed. He got a call to set up an interview within a couple of days.

He didn't get hired. Sometimes things suck. You do realize that current airline pilots participate in the hiring process, right? Frequently it's ordinary line pilots. Being the guy that will vote pay-cuts for others in order to get a quicker upgrade in an over-grown RJ is likely the quickest way to move you to the "DO NOT WANT!" list.



Because every guy who has ever bent metal is an idiot. Right. Shall I start listing the great aviators both past and present who have piled one in?

There's not a single regional lifer who exists who thought they would be a regional lifer.
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Can I get a witness!:bounce:
 
.. the details coming out about the TA make it sound even more draconian than what Eagle was offered. If that's the case, I hope PSA pilots thumb their noses at it. Whoever gets the next round of jets, don't let them lower the bar on all of us.
 
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