Scam or Good?

DBrown said:
E-1 base is $18500 If you count the free housing, meals, medical, tuition reimbursement and other bennies they make double that and more

Why would any CFI work for $6 an hour? Go work at McDonalds and leave aviation alone before you ho yourself out like that.

I had a plumber clear a drain the other day, $120 an hour and a 1 hour minimum and I guarantee his education didn't cost a quarter of what my CFI cost me to get.
You don't see plumbers out there cutting each others throats, or working for free, why do pilots?
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Did you think about this before you posted it?? The cost of education is irrelevant, it is cheaper to practice turning a pipe wrench than it is to rent an airplane.

Try looking at consumer demand/necessity...
 
RogerMurdock said:
I think I agree with everyone.

Just to throw out other perspectives. They get paid if there's a week of constant rain or snow and/or if nobody wants to fly. It has been explained to me as being great because they average around $20,000 a year, which doesn't sound bad for a flight instructor (which pains me to say it). I was also told they don't need to worry about no shows and late students, because they are already out there anyway (perhaps that's just some poor justification for living at the airport). The only downside is that they have to dress up in a black maid's outfit and grab a feather duster for a little bit.
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If you take this job Doug Taylor, himself, or his minions may slit your throat...:sarcasm:
 
modernicarus said:
At ~$1500/mo, E-1's make much less than that and they have many, many, many 12+ hr days.
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They also get a free place to live or BAH, free meals, extra money if they have a family and cheap healthcare. Plus if you don't promote within 6 months your def a screw up.
 
Jafari RastaMan said:
Did you think about this before you posted it?? The cost of education is irrelevant, it is cheaper to practice turning a pipe wrench than it is to rent an airplane.

Try looking at consumer demand/necessity...
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There is no shortage of plumbers, but you never see one charging $20 an hour to undercut everyone elso or working for free to build time

It's totally relevant, unless you think the value of someone's education should not be in any way related to what they earn.

I see an issue in aviation that I don't see in any other field, it's that we spend huge amounts of $ to become instructors and get degrees and end up making 1/3 of what a high school grad makes say..... turning a pipe wrench

You would be hard pressed to get a degree and your CFI for less than $100k

So yes when I see someone billing $120 an hr for turning a wrench when his training and education consists of a couple weeks in a class and $1200 I can't help but sit back and wonder why pilots who spend $100k for their education and experience would even consider working for $6 an hour
 
Mark815 said:
As a CFI, depending on the company, you should be responsible for number 1, 4 and 7 on that list.
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FIFY

I'm not washing an airplane unless flying through IMC counts.

However, if I was given a monetary incentive to do # 4, I might consider it.
 
DBrown said:
I can't help but sit back and wonder why pilots who spend $100k for their education and experience would even consider working for $6 an hour
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It's because piloting, unlike cleaning grease and hair from drains, is a very romantic occupation. It's something most people enter out of necessity to feed a passion for being in the air. It's more comparable to being an artist/musician with this self-destructive habit of taking any cheap and shady job in order to spend one more day doing this, rather than thinking a bit more strategically. And the pattern continues and pulls the standards lower and lower and lower.
 
DBrown said:
I see an issue in aviation that I don't see in any other field, it's that we spend huge amounts of $ to become instructors and get degrees and end up making 1/3 of what a high school grad makes say..... turning a pipe wrench
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Not just limited to flight instructors. ANY job that seems interesting or fun, probably pays quite poorly. TV reporter? lots of them start out working for free, or getting paid next to nothing, because lots of people with journalism degrees want to do that. Most fashion designers and actors make next to nothing, because, again - lots of people want to do it. And lets be honest, pretty much anyone can become a flight instructor. An actor's agent makes much more than the actor does - but who goes to Hollywood with dreams of being an agent?

Jobs that pay well have a few things in common. It is something that few people are qualified to do, and usually something that not many people want to do. And is in an industry that has healthy margins. A good sales rep can make a million dollars/year, because he may make his employer many more millions they wouldn't have made otherwise. And they don't want to risk losing a sale from having someone incompetent. Good engineers can be paid huge money, because there actually aren't that many available, with experience, at any given time. Most people don't think of writing TPS reports or cold calling as "fun," so supply is somewhat limited. No one is willing to do it for free.

The only thing that will raise flight instructor pay? Flight instructors not taking crappy paying jobs. If you can't find anyone? Go out of business, or raise pay and prices accordingly. Of course, with the 1,500 hour ATP rule, there will be a flood of CFIs willing to pay for a job. Even then, I don't think that there are enough students out there to satisfy demand for 1,500 hour pilots. Unless the US starts importing even more foreign students (and with instructors willing to work for free, the economics there are actually pretty good).
 
rframe said:
It's because piloting, unlike cleaning grease and hair from drains, is a very romantic occupation. It's something most people enter out of necessity to feed a passion for being in the air. It's more comparable to being an artist/musician with this self-destructive habit of taking any cheap and shady job in order to spend one more day doing this, rather than thinking a bit more strategically. And the pattern continues and pulls the standards lower and lower and lower.
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I think the romance days are over, crash pads, vending machine dinners, sleeping on FBO couches are not very romantic to me, most people think of us as glorified truck drivers now days, even the media had people believing the Korea flight pilot only had 45 hrs under his wings. I had to argue with non pilot friends about this for 3 days trying to explain why people don't get to fly jumbos with 45 hrs

I totally understand that people love flying and will sacrifice a lot to keep doing it. I just wish that as a whole, the pilot community would get some self respect and help increase the standard for everyone.

But I digress, there will always be that kid living at home with no bills that will ferry an airplane for free
Or the CFI that has a full time job so flying for $12 an hour is better than paying out of pocket to keep current

I totally understand, but that doesn't mean I have to like it :)
 
Ajax said:
FIFY

I'm not washing an airplane unless flying through IMC counts.

However, if I was given a monetary incentive to do # 4, I might consider it.
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Yeah I maybe should have specified. I think it all depends on where you're working. If you're flying non-stop for a big flight school, I wouldn't consider washing planes. I worked for a small FBO with only 5 planes, and it was a very family like atmosphere. On nice summer days, if I wasn't flying, I'd have no problem grabbing a bucket and help the mechanics wash them. Def wasn't a requirement though, more of a good way to hang out outside, talk airplanes and help out.
 
Such a salary can be better than hourly in some areas of the world. I flight instructed in an area where you were essentially shut down for for 3 months every year because of weather. That salary presented here would have been more money than I made hourly. I had one month where I made a grand total of $8 after taxes and insurance stuff.

That said. Requiring 11 hour days is excessive.
 
In my experience, a place that pays such an abysmal rate usually has such a disregard for their employees' well being that they're usually cutting corners in other places. You know what you've paid for your training. You know what your skills are worth. Don't risk your certificates or your life for an employer that, as evidenced by their wages, thinks you're worth less than minimum wage.
 
rframe said:
It's because piloting, unlike cleaning grease and hair from drains, is a very romantic occupation. It's something most people enter out of necessity to feed a passion for being in the air.
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I've taught students who have about as much passion for flying as I do for washing dishes. Many of these "pilots" are now getting paid big bucks by illustrious airlines like one whose crew recently came up a bit short at the SFO threshold. These guys
American pilots can be and usually are the best drivers in the world. Let's act like it.
I'm all for passion, but let's put a bit of it to use respecting our profession. Selling ourselves short, undercutting each other at every available opportunity, and allowing ourselves to be abused is a short, quick race to the bottom. Let's all make a new year's resolution to respect the community of folks who've toiled (or are toiling) to accrue the skill and knowledge it takes to be a solid pilot...and then act and bill accordingly.
FNGs need to start thinking longer-term. GOBOBs need to start doing more pro-bono mentoring for the young guys. If we don't cover each others' sixes, no one else will.
Sorry for the rant...
 
Crop Duster said:
I've taught students who have about as much passion for flying as I do for washing dishes. Many of these "pilots" are now getting paid big bucks by illustrious airlines like one whose crew recently came up a bit short at the SFO threshold. These guys
American pilots can be and usually are the best drivers in the world. Let's act like it.
I'm all for passion, but let's put a bit of it to use respecting our profession. Selling ourselves short, undercutting each other at every available opportunity, and allowing ourselves to be abused is a short, quick race to the bottom. Let's all make a new year's resolution to respect the community of folks who've toiled (or are toiling) to accrue the skill and knowledge it takes to be a solid pilot...and then act and bill accordingly.
FNGs need to start thinking longer-term. GOBOBs need to start doing more pro-bono mentoring for the young guys. If we don't cover each others' sixes, no one else will.
Sorry for the rant...
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That's all well and good... and I agree with every statement you just made... but on more than one occasion, I've seen guys on here (and other pro pilot boards) say, "Yep... I get all that. It'd be nice, but... f all that, I gotta watch out for numero uno. I'm not taking the hit just so everyone else gets a better ride." And that's very unfortunate. Understandable to a certain degree, but unfortunate. We are all selfish creatures at heart.
 
Would you rather make $1500 a month spending 220 hours a month at the airport, being a slave for pennies; or would you rather make $1200 a month spending maybe 60 quality hours a month at the airport, by charging 3 students $30 an hour to fly, plus ground instruction? (If you had 3 students, flew 2.5 hours a week / 1 hour of ground, per student, that's 30 hours of flight time a month, plus maybe 12 hours of ground).


RogerMurdock said:
Just curious on everyone's take on this: .... 7) Occasional nap
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I'd like to just say that if you are ever at the airport doing "nothing", your doing it wrong.

A: Your making your-self look like a lazy dimwit when someone walks in the door who has some coin / connections.

B: If your going to take a nap at the airport, (1.) you should be getting paid to do it (and not plebeian wages either), and (2.) you should be doing it when you have absolutely no reason to make a good impression (e.g. in the crew lounge after a long day of work), or else go home and sleep in the comfort of your own castle!



Mark815 said:
Next, putting up with pain to move on? Why even put up with pain to begin with??... Just because someone has a job offer for you, doesn't mean you have to take it, especially if you know it's going to be for a lower than standard wage, with extra unpaid duty, and poor work environment. Why subject yourself to that?
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THIS. People make much stronger impressions on others when they are HAPPY. It was very hard for me to turn down some of the "opportunities" I was offered in the past. Which were anywhere from flight instructing, flying jumpers full time, to ferrying some "cool" aircraft. But at the end of the day, my safety, and happiness became "the prerogative". Believe it or not, you will move up the ladder much faster playing by that one single rule, and you'll easily find a job that you will be excited to go to day in day out.
 
Calvin and Hobbs Meter said:
I'd like to just say that if you are ever at the airport doing "nothing", your doing it wrong.

A: Your making your-self look like a lazy dimwit when someone walks in the door who has some coin / connections.

B: If your going to take a nap at the airport
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Making repetitive grammatical errors and then judging someone as a dimwit is quite hilarious.
 
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