Yes, I honestly don't know the answer to that. Just the talk of cabotage made me wonder if that occurs or not, as some kind of exception maybe. I just don't know. Derg do you know?
Landing Incident @ SFO
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Yes, I honestly don't know the answer to that. Just the talk of cabotage made me wonder if that occurs or not, as some kind of exception maybe. I just don't know. Derg do you know?
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Homewrecker
Was that due to safety or financials? Also, using that logic would it be the same as allowing the market to choose between Asiana and Delta and allowing Asiana to die?
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
See: Korean Air's temporary expulsion from SkyTeam and Widget sending someone over to straighten them out. Allegedly, anyway...
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Homewrecker
Was that due to safety or financials? Also, using that logic would it be the same as allowing the market to choose between Asiana and Delta and allowing Asiana to die?
Seggy
Well-Known Member
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Homewrecker
I read your response earlier as saying Pinnacle and Colgan are not really around because of their dismal safety record, I'm saying if that's the case then allowing foreign carriers would be no big deal as their dismal safety record would put them out of business. Or was I off on your assessment?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Sorry, but I'm laid up with some weird summer flu bug right now. It sucks. The Canadian has my proxy for this week.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
The foreign airlines don't operate in a free market.
The fact is cabotage is bad for the reasons I talked about among countless others. Do you understand those reasons or just trying to go round and round and attempt to bust my balls?
broncoav8r
Well-Known Member
They talk about this in the book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell. There is an entire chapter on Korean Air and their issues.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I'll back up the 'Squatch on this. I was present for that talk as well, and it was truly astonishing how openly he discussed their desire to basically kill American aviation companies and completely take over. Money is absolutely no object to them, because they're not thinking about two years down the road, or even 20 years down the road. They're thinking about 50 years down the road, when their oil superiority is no longer relevant. They're setting up the Middle East as the new transportation hub of the world, and the only way to be totally dominant and replace the current players is to spend ungodly amounts of money now to kill the competition so that they're the only ones standing in 50 years.
Korean Air come a long way? From talking with my buddies on the inside, I can assure you its not better at Korean. Sure it got better when they were threatened and they brought in a VP from Delta. But he's long gone. I turned down 2 interviews with Korean cause I couldn't get time off, and the fact I'm a fat ass and they require a certain BMI. Thought about applying again but every time I hear the stories from my buddy, I get pushed away.
Nick
Well-Known Member
Nope, it's just a "tag on" route where it continues beyond the first point with pax going all the way to PHX, and the same thing happens the other way.
Like United's long standing LAX-SYD-MEL-SYD-LAX. (non-rev/jumpseater alert: cabotage rules mean these tag-along routes are a guaranteed jackpot for wide-open loads!!!)
Nick
Well-Known Member
Well, better than it used to be, from the conversation I had anyway.
Doesn't mean it isn't still a long way behind the CRM philosophy of crews at United, Qantas, British Airways, Lufthansa, Air Canada, Delta, etc.
Just that they aren't putting one in on a regular basis anymore because it's improved over years past.
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Homewrecker
No I'm honestly trying to understand. The only real argument I could find from you was
I pointed out Pinnacle 3701, Colgan 3407, and how about Comair 5191 also? I want to see how you would categorize those? Would you say they were due to a lack of a high level training environment or a lack of safety culture? If so, how are they better than a foreign airline?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
FYI, ALPA's press release regarding the accident and investigation:
ALPA Calls for Thorough Investigation of Asiana Flight 214 Accident; Warns Against Making Conclusions Based on Partial Data
WASHINGTON — The Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l, released the following statement regarding the crash landing of Asiana Flight 214 in San Francisco on Saturday, July 6, 2013.
First and foremost, our thoughts are with those who were involved in the accident this past Saturday. From the crew to the passengers to the families and first responders, we hope they can gain some comfort during this difficult time.
ALPA is stunned by the amount of detailed operational data from on-board recorders released by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) this soon into the investigation. The amount of data released publicly during the field portion of the accident investigation is unprecedented.
It is imperative that safety investigators refrain from prematurely releasing the information from on-board recording devices. We have seen in the past that publicizing this data before all of it can be collected and analyzed leads to erroneous conclusions that can actually interfere with the investigative process.
The release of individual data points from the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder—without the context of the entire body of factual investigative data—represents a potential detriment to flight safety. It encourages wild speculation, as we have already seen in the media, about causes of the accident before all the facts are known, before investigators have the ability to determine why the events occurred, and in this case before the flight crew had even been interviewed.
This premature release of partial data is often taken out of context and creates the impression that the NTSB has already determined probable cause even before the investigation has started. Since each factor of flight, landing, airport environment, and crew is part of safe air travel, we need to ensure that reckless release of information is not sensationalized by the media for the purpose of a few headlines.
ALPA has long supported an objective accident investigation process that is based on the fundamental principle of obtaining all the facts to perform accurate analysis in the context of all factors that may have led to an accident. We stand ready to assist the NTSB or any state investigative agency in obtaining those facts and ensuring that an appropriate operational context is maintained.
ALPA urges the NTSB to make sure that the objective investigative process continues by gathering all the facts and relevant information before leading the public to believe that a cause has been determined.
Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world’s largest pilots union, representing more than 50,000 pilots at 33 airlines in the United States and Canada.
ALPA Calls for Thorough Investigation of Asiana Flight 214 Accident; Warns Against Making Conclusions Based on Partial Data
WASHINGTON — The Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l, released the following statement regarding the crash landing of Asiana Flight 214 in San Francisco on Saturday, July 6, 2013.
First and foremost, our thoughts are with those who were involved in the accident this past Saturday. From the crew to the passengers to the families and first responders, we hope they can gain some comfort during this difficult time.
ALPA is stunned by the amount of detailed operational data from on-board recorders released by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) this soon into the investigation. The amount of data released publicly during the field portion of the accident investigation is unprecedented.
It is imperative that safety investigators refrain from prematurely releasing the information from on-board recording devices. We have seen in the past that publicizing this data before all of it can be collected and analyzed leads to erroneous conclusions that can actually interfere with the investigative process.
The release of individual data points from the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder—without the context of the entire body of factual investigative data—represents a potential detriment to flight safety. It encourages wild speculation, as we have already seen in the media, about causes of the accident before all the facts are known, before investigators have the ability to determine why the events occurred, and in this case before the flight crew had even been interviewed.
This premature release of partial data is often taken out of context and creates the impression that the NTSB has already determined probable cause even before the investigation has started. Since each factor of flight, landing, airport environment, and crew is part of safe air travel, we need to ensure that reckless release of information is not sensationalized by the media for the purpose of a few headlines.
ALPA has long supported an objective accident investigation process that is based on the fundamental principle of obtaining all the facts to perform accurate analysis in the context of all factors that may have led to an accident. We stand ready to assist the NTSB or any state investigative agency in obtaining those facts and ensuring that an appropriate operational context is maintained.
ALPA urges the NTSB to make sure that the objective investigative process continues by gathering all the facts and relevant information before leading the public to believe that a cause has been determined.
Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world’s largest pilots union, representing more than 50,000 pilots at 33 airlines in the United States and Canada.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
I think you will have no problem getting on at a legacy airline here in a short time!
SeanD
Well-Known Member
I havent really noticed the NTSB leading on to anything. All of the briefings I have seen conclude that its ongoing and nothing can be determined yet. I think its a media thing. They are the idiots who spin it.
I couldn't agree more with the enlarged sections that I've highlighted. Measured media releases, regardless of the need to calm the public; which I think is an overrated worry anyway by many politicos.
I hope so Mark. I'm pretty desperate if I'm actually thinking of heading to the motherland.
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