Landing Incident @ SFO
- Thread starter BEEF SUPREME
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WildcatPilot
Well-Known Member
Or written by producers and stumbled across by the anchor who never saw it coming.
v1valarob
Well-Known Member
We do it every day here. VOR 13L / 13R all day long. Every single aircraft. Pass the VOR, then follow the strobes around on a base to final. You won't see a PAPI until you're below 1000'. Then when landing the 22s if LGA is in a certain configuration they stop using the ILS and starting using an offset localizer or VOR/DME.
Beep
Well-Known Member
Along with the producers babbling incoherently in their ear piece while they're on air.
WildcatPilot
Well-Known Member
Along with the producers babbling incoherently in their ear piece while they're on air.
Exactly!
Very true. But you and me see maybe 3 landings in a span of 5 hours sometimes. Long haul guys see 3 landings a month if they are lucky.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
1 landing a month, 2 if you're lucky...
v1valarob
Well-Known Member
There shouldn't be luck involved when it comes to flying aircraft. Either you can fly a visual approach and safely put the aircraft on the ground, or you need to go back to training.
Btw, I'm not trying to make any point really. Just initially saying that at large (huge) airports like JFK that see aircraft from all over the world, the big boys don't get it easy when on approach into this area.
I'm damn amazed when I'm watching a heavy bank around the double tree hotel, then I see its an Asian carrier and can't even begin to imagine how fatigued those guys are and that they are managing to pull off a nice approach with very little vertical guidance.
wbauman1217
Well-Known Member
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/airport-landing-system-off-plane-crashed-san-francisco-053403798.html
What.. The . Is "Glide Path"?
What.. The . Is "Glide Path"?
Skåning
Well-Known Member
Bernoulli Fan
Controller
I don't know, man. Airline's already inconvenienced me by crashing my plane into the runway. Now I'm gonna have to sit in airport limbo for eight hours until at least 40 authorities tell me I can leave. If my bag is small and near, I'll be grabbing it on the way out. If I don't, it's gonna get burned or ruined with foam. I'd probably try to grab a beer or two from the galley as well, for the eight-hour wait. Slight
but not really, probably.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
I don't know, man. Airline's already inconvenienced me by crashing my plane into the runway. Now I'm gonna have to sit in airport limbo for eight hours until at least 40 authorities tell me I can leave. If my bag is small and near, I'll be grabbing it on the way out. If I don't, it's gonna get burned or ruined with foam. I'd probably try to grab a beer or two from the galley as well, for the eight-hour wait. Slight
Depends what the accident is like, but if I wasn't flying I'm going back for the liquor cart. Sorry chumps, add it to my bill.
I don't know, man. Airline's already inconvenienced me by crashing my plane into the runway. Now I'm gonna have to sit in airport limbo for eight hours until at least 40 authorities tell me I can leave. If my bag is small and near, I'll be grabbing it on the way out. If I don't, it's gonna get burned or ruined with foam. I'd probably try to grab a beer or two from the galley as well, for the eight-hour wait. Slight
I'm thinking if someone is trying to get their PNT stealth 22 from the overhead and work it through the aisle while I'm trying to get to the exit, I'm going to grab it and toss it in the fire, maybe break out a bag of marshmallows to go with it....
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
You likely don't understand their culture. It is a fairly robotic culture. They go by the book. Thinking outside the box is something that has really been groomed out of them. I have flown with a ton of Koreans and found this to be an issue. Following the SOPs exactly will get you delayed sometimes. When asked to hold X speed to the marker they get behind really fast as the profile just got jacked up. This is exactly why a visual can be harder than an approach to 200-1/2. The ILS approach is purely mechanical, visuals can be interesting.
Authority figures are seen as always being THE 100% authority. The guys I flew with would see stuff I missed and wouldn't say a thing. I seriously almost had to yell at them to tell me if I messed something up.
"Captain. You forgot the taxi light" was about the best I could get.
Why is this a factor? It takes one item to keep this from happening. If the FO didn't like what he was seeing he could say something earlier rather than not at all. Obviously this assumes a botched visual and could be completely unrelated to what actually happened.
Training could definitely be improved. The international schools (FSI, transpac, ect) seem to try and push students through as fast as possible. Fast training means more money faster. It doesn't mean the students will be quality. I have had an FO turn to me at 900 TT and 600 hours in the metro and ask "how do you know where to go when cleared for a visual approach"? He was one of the good ones
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Well at least he has a chance at a second career if this whole pilot thing doesn't pan out.
You likely don't understand their culture. It is a fairly robotic culture. They go by the book. Thinking outside the box is something that has really been groomed out of them. I have flown with a ton of Koreans and found this to be an issue. Following the SOPs exactly will get you delayed sometimes. When asked to hold X speed to the marker they get behind really fast as the profile just got jacked up. This is exactly why a visual can be harder than an approach to 200-1/2. The ILS approach is purely mechanical, visuals can be interesting.
Authority figures are seen as always being THE 100% authority. The guys I flew with would see stuff I missed and wouldn't say a thing. I seriously almost had to yell at them to tell me if I messed something up.
"Captain. You forgot the taxi light" was about the best I could get.
Why is this a factor? It takes one item to keep this from happening. If the FO didn't like what he was seeing he could say something earlier rather than not at all. Obviously this assumes a botched visual and could be completely unrelated to what actually happened.
Training could definitely be improved. The international schools (FSI, transpac, ect) seem to try and push students through as fast as possible. Fast training means more money faster. It doesn't mean the students will be quality. I have had an FO turn to me at 900 TT and 600 hours in the metro and ask "how do you know where to go when cleared for a visual approach"? He was one of the good ones
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Having worked around the ROKAF for a while over a decade ago, I can easily see where you're coming from. And while I fully agree with your assessment regards training, having training overcome the cultural mindset that's ingrained is likely a wall that will be exceptionally tough to break through, if at all; generally speaking. And unfortunately.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
I agree. It isn't easy to break the bad habits of a an extremely old culture. Primacy can be hard enough...
Well most at AMF have flown with Korean pilots. There is a reason we tell our family and friends not to fly on any Korean airlines. We knew they would follow SOPs into a mountain we just didn't think it would be a sea wall.
Maurus has pretty much said it best.
I had one guy fly me into a mountain on a clear VFR day just to hold a 3 degree decent. After loosing sight of airport behind the mountain he turns to me and asks what to do.
Maurus has pretty much said it best.
I had one guy fly me into a mountain on a clear VFR day just to hold a 3 degree decent. After loosing sight of airport behind the mountain he turns to me and asks what to do.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
You likely don't understand their culture. It is a fairly robotic culture. They go by the book. Thinking outside the box is something that has really been groomed out of them. I have flown with a ton of Koreans and found this to be an issue. Following the SOPs exactly will get you delayed sometimes. When asked to hold X speed to the marker they get behind really fast as the profile just got jacked up. This is exactly why a visual can be harder than an approach to 200-1/2. The ILS approach is purely mechanical, visuals can be interesting.
Authority figures are seen as always being THE 100% authority. The guys I flew with would see stuff I missed and wouldn't say a thing. I seriously almost had to yell at them to tell me if I messed something up.
"Captain. You forgot the taxi light" was about the best I could get.
Why is this a factor? It takes one item to keep this from happening. If the FO didn't like what he was seeing he could say something earlier rather than not at all. Obviously this assumes a botched visual and could be completely unrelated to what actually happened.
Training could definitely be improved. The international schools (FSI, transpac, ect) seem to try and push students through as fast as possible. Fast training means more money faster. It doesn't mean the students will be quality. I have had an FO turn to me at 900 TT and 600 hours in the metro and ask "how do you know where to go when cleared for a visual approach"? He was one of the good ones
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
In fairness that was a metro, if the thing had real ailerons and flew like a real airplane he would know what to do. He was really asking, "Hey Capt', how do I trick this piece of crap into flying a visual approach?"
Here's one of my experiences dealing with the Chinese in my other life. An airline called Cargo King (not the second time it was named that, the third time, not to be confused with the fourth time), which was sorta' kinda' China Eastern Cargo when they were pretending to be a separate entity, was coming in for it's nightly dropoff at JFK. The MD-11 was being crewed by about 25 guys (just kidding), but it was 2 captains, 2 FO's, 2 translators, a chart runner, a load master (sometimes) and one other I never got figured out what he did. The captain on that leg was taxiing pretty fast into the JAL Cargo building and the Fed waiting out front was pissed at his choice of taxi speeds. The crew was getting off and the plane, when the Fed went into scare the pilot's mode. The pilots really didn't understand him, smiled, and left with their "ticket".
(fast forward 3 weeks)
The Captain in question was brought in for a meeting with that same Fed, listened intently while the translator explained the situation, and when the Fed started laying into the Captain the real fun began. The Captain barked at the Fed in what I can only imagine was Mandarin, barked at the translator, then stood sharply, affixed his hat, and walked out of the room. The Fed was beside himself, yet baffled, and asked the translator what the Captain had said. The translator looks the Fed right in the eye, says "I'm afraid the Captain has a stomach ache and cannot continue this meeting."
The Captains were always very nice to me, but it was clear who was in charge of everything. Accept it, move on, have a free cup of tea with them. While change may be the only constant in the universe, it comes slower to the Asians in my experience.
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