DHS claims pilots have no right to refuse search!

MikeD said:
As Ive said before, it's one's own responsibility to know their own rights. And as I've always said before too, I don't necessarily like consent searches, or even asking for them. To me, its laziness: either PC is there...either out in the open, or easily found with minimal digging.....or it isn't. If it is and it's articulable, then go with it. If it isn't, then the stop is over and everyone goes on their way. The few times Ive asked for consent is when there's a hunch that the guy is a bad guy, but as Ive said, that isn't PC. So you ask, then the idiot consents, then drugs/ illegal weapons / illegal contraband being smuggled / humans being smuggled is found, and you now have an arrest and instant PC to further search. Asking the guy "if you knew you had all of this [illegal stuff], WHY did you consent to a search? Why didn't you just tell me no??" Answer: "I didn't know I could."; or "I thought it would make me look suspicious." Sheesh.......:)
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The reason so many people give their "consent" is the intimidation factor. The "we can do it the easy way or the hard way" is especially effective when the person offering that choice has a gun and a badge and a baton.
I find local law enforcement is far less worried about PC than you are. They will ask for consent for cya purposes and then search anyway regardless of the response. If they get a negative response and search anyway and don't find anything, so what? no one complains, and if they do what are their damages? nothing.
Let's take the alternative. He searches, finds something, then the case gets dismissed, or plea bargained down to almost nothing, or a not guilty, or possibly a guilty which gets overturned on appeal. What is his response? Is it maybe I should learn something about the law with regard to searches? No, it's that perp got off due to a technicality.

MikeD said:
Depends where they are and what agency they're with, in regards to what they do and scope of practice. As Feds though, they're country-wide jurisdiction for their job; no city/state lines mean anything. Generally speaking, they're enforcing any federal laws, with a specific focus on what their particular agency does. And in an emergency, they are LEOs that can do what's necesssary to assist other law enforcement. Since they're not peace officers, they don't enforce state/city laws, so you aren't going to get the FBI pulling you over for speeding, for example. But, they have made traffic stops of serious state crimes such as suspected DUIs.....erratic/unsafe driving, etc....if only as a public safety measure for all motorists. In that case, and if proven to be an impaired driver, then local/county/state officers are called to handle it.
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I was once pulled over by a U.S. Marshall. Quite an interesting story. The local law enforcement mocked him rather than assisted him.
 
All I gotta ask is if anyone had an "Is that your television" experience here? If not, well, it's all just academic! :)
 
Derg said:
All I gotta ask is if anyone had an "Is that your television" experience here? If not, well, it's all just academic! :)
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Being one of just a handful of "gringos" growing up in Miami I had experiences that really let me know I was in the minority and not welcome. But I never had the cops bother me.
 
Anyone hear the congressional testimony by the DHS today? There was a segment coming up about pilot stop-and-searches, but I had to go back to work before it came on.
 
Old Pete said:
The reason so many people give their "consent" is the intimidation factor. The "we can do it the easy way or the hard way" is especially effective when the person offering that choice has a gun and a badge and a baton.
I find local law enforcement is far less worried about PC than you are.
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Might be some of it, but I think that the ability of police to lie has a lot to do with it as well. They are under no obligation to tell you the truth, while it is a crime for a suspect to give a false statement. It isn't like you will ever hear "Well, I have no reason to search you, so if you say no, I'll just let you go on your way."
 
drunkenbeagle said:
It isn't like you will ever hear "Well, I have no reason to search you, so if you say no, I'll just let you go on your way."
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While this is true that this likely would never be stated, this is where a citizen knowing his own rights is important. Because the police are under no obligation to tell a citizen that they can refuse a consent search.....they're under no obligation to advise a citizen of what their own Consitutional rights are in any normal circumstance not involving post-arrest Mirandizing. People have to know their rights, and then exercise them responsibly, even against the potential intimidating officer who tries to be pushy; because at the end of the day, with no PC, that officer has no leg to stand on.
 
Here's one who is not happy about someone who asserts his right to not consent to a search.
NSFW (language) It gets interesting at 2:32

 
rframe said:
Except in the case of ignorant DHS "agents" who seem to have no problem letting people sit around for 2+hours on a ramp waiting to fly in extra aircraft, extra Suburbans full of guys dressed and armed like some teenage tacticool mallcop's wet dream, and drug dogs.

I'd still like to know WHY we even have a DHS, every task they are "assigned" already has another agency dedicated to it... what a bunch of redundant nonsense. When you have enough bored agents running around the country in helicopters and assault gear with no clear target, what else would we expect to happen?
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It amused me when they called it "Homeland". I don't think the USA has ever used terms to refer to itself like this before. It reminds me of Russia with Motherland/Mother Russia or Fatherland in Germany. It's extremely nationalistic and usually associated with Fascism.
The US ran a massive propaganda campaign in WW2 in which the world fatherland became linked with Nazism.

So far, IMO, I think the word choice was brilliant foreshadowing that even Orwell would be proud of. I'm actually curious who coined the term and if they knew what was to come of the agency, or they were beyond stupid and had no idea the negative connotations. My money is on some junior staffer coining the term.
 
So let's sum it up. Say I'm being pulled over/ramp checked/etc by someone with a badge and a gun. They ask if they can search my plane/car/bicycle saddle bag. I say "I'm not resisting but I do not give consent to warrantless search or seizure."

At this point they either move on to the next victim or say something along the lines "So you want to make it difficult, huh... Allright we're calling K9"

Question #1: In the latter case how much time do they have? Some sources say just enough to write a ticket. I'm guessing 15 minutes is about reasonable. So after 15 minutes what's the process of communicating to them that I have other plans for the evening?

Other sources suggest to ask if I'm free to go and if I'm being detained. Based on youtube videos most likely they just pretend they didn't hear the question or they say that yes I am being detained.

Question #2: What to do in those cases?
 
hammerhat said:
So let's sum it up. Say I'm being pulled over/ramp checked/etc by someone with a badge and a gun. They ask if they can search my plane/car/bicycle saddle bag. I say "I'm not resisting but I do not give consent to warrantless search or seizure."

At this point they either move on to the next victim or say something along the lines "So you want to make it difficult, huh... Allright we're calling K9"

Question #1: In the latter case how much time do they have? Some sources say just enough to write a ticket. I'm guessing 15 minutes is about reasonable. So after 15 minutes what's the process of communicating to them that I have other plans for the evening?

Other sources suggest to ask if I'm free to go and if I'm being detained. Based on youtube videos most likely they just pretend they didn't hear the question or they say that yes I am being detained.

Question #2: What to do in those cases?
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Question #1: was answered before in a previous post.

Question #2: Refer to Question #1
 
hammerhat said:
So let's sum it up. Say I'm being pulled over/ramp checked/etc by someone with a badge and a gun. They ask if they can search my plane/car/bicycle saddle bag. I say "I'm not resisting but I do not give consent to warrantless search or seizure."

At this point they either move on to the next victim or say something along the lines "So you want to make it difficult, huh... Allright we're calling K9"

Question #1: In the latter case how much time do they have? Some sources say just enough to write a ticket. I'm guessing 15 minutes is about reasonable. So after 15 minutes what's the process of communicating to them that I have other plans for the evening?

Other sources suggest to ask if I'm free to go and if I'm being detained. Based on youtube videos most likely they just pretend they didn't hear the question or they say that yes I am being detained.

Question #2: What to do in those cases?
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You need to talk to a criminal lawyer, the circumstances make a huge difference. And boats, planes and cars are all treated very differently.

Even in the case of a car, you can be arrested and charged with "obstruction" for not being cooperative enough. Here in Florida, that isn't actually a crime so long as there was no other arrestable offense, but that is different everywhere.

Boats can be searched for safety and fishing/game inspections, your person is really the only secure thing there. I have no idea about the case law on aircraft, but most of that is probably federal.

All that being said, just about every LEO I have talked to had been a cool person, if you aren't being a dick, odds are they aren't going to be either.

The one thing I have always wondered about - if something I am in possession of is under a gag order/NDA, how does that work with a search? Ask the LEO to get permission from the judge first/notify counsel of the NDA? None of those I have ever seen made any exceptions for voluntary searches.
 
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