Question for you guys...

Well his boss offered him 10% off if he could pay up front, and the full amount if he chose to pay in $100 increments off each paycheck. I told him no matter what tell the owner that he would have to think about whatever options were presented to him. I told him to wait until next week and offer up 25% off to pay the full price up front. I know none of this is preferable, but he needs to keep his job at this location and to do that he is going to have to pay something.
 
Calvin and Hobbs Meter said:
Ditto; unless that car was a company car, and the driver was an employee. Damages are inevitable.

If the CFI is eligible to get fired, then he is an employee, and should by default be covered by the company. After the accident is taken care of (at no cost to the employee) the company then should weigh the risk of keeping the employee vs the total worth of said employee (e.g. he has a ton of students and a clean record until now.) I wouldn't want to work for a company that didn't exercise sound judgement in this regard. In this case, I wouldn't pay, but unfortunately that doesn't mean they have to keep you around either. Either way, the CFI should have had a contingency plan for this type of event, it's an inherent risk of being a CFI. I wouldn't have gotten involved with a company that wasn't willing to cover me in the for such a small event in the first place. If it were me, I would resolve the issue, and find a place to work that supports their employees in time of need.

Conversely, if the CFI was quite simply renting the plane from the company, I would compare that to getting a fender bender in a rental car. That's why we get insurance when we rent cars. By default the student couldn't rent something he's not qualified to use on his own, so the CFI is responsible, not the student. Again, damages are inevitable and it's ill-advisable to not plan accordingly, insurance is a must. In this case I would consider the money owed to the company a penalty for not having his bases covered (with insurance) when they were fully loaded. Talking to the owner and trying to get the amount owed lowered would be a good idea here.

There is no possible way it was the line guys fault. The plane may have been moved, but the CFI let his guard down, and hit a stationary object. If the CFI knows the line guy is a risk at times, then the CFI should be exercising extreme caution when around the ramp under that single premise alone. I would compare it to driving a car in a parking lot, you just inherently have to watch out for the people who didn't quite park in their lanes properly, and can't expect all the cars to be in the correct spot ALL the time (because it seems to me, a lot of people are really bad at parking). Again, another reason to get insurance or review the company policy beforehand.

We all choose our battles. I have learned it's best to exercise extreme caution when picking battles, unless your job is on the line; even then, I feel it's important to strive to be the bigger man; it says a lot about one's character. Resolve is priceless, and I don't recommend for your friend to quit/leave without taking care of the dispute, regardless of who is right or wrong.

Pure speculation on my part but I would imagine the accident went like "Go ahead and taxi past that aircraft, I know it looks close but your good, I've done it 100's of times before." Bummer.
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Excellent points here and one that I guess I hadn't considered much was the fact that I was an independent contractor (which I just assumed most CFIs are) and as such I was basically renting this flight schools airplanes to give flight instruction in.

I have never been a full time CFI employee so that may change my mentality a bit. But I will still stand by my statement that I would be happy to have a job after bending metal.

I had a co-worker make a $6,000 oops one day and basically management put him on "probation". The company ate the cost, told the guy not to let it happen again, told him to walk a fine line for 6 months, and be on his way. Now, if he lied or tried to cover it up for any reason, I think that would have been the end of his time with us.
 
chrisreedrules said:
Well his boss offered him 10% off if he could pay up front, and the full amount if he chose to pay in $100 increments off each paycheck. I told him no matter what tell the owner that he would have to think about whatever options were presented to him. I told him to wait until next week and offer up 25% off to pay the full price up front. I know none of this is preferable, but he needs to keep his job at this location and to do that he is going to have to pay something.
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NOT cool.

If everyone in corporate aviation had to pay for the metal they bend, or the other fubars they create, we would all be fired. I've never seen anyone fired for something like this either. If it is chronic, yes, otherwise it usually wouldn't even warrant a dressing down.

Believe it or not, there are places to work that actually value their employees.

I would quit and move on. I remember thinking otherwise when I was young. I would have done anything to get to play with jet A.
 
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chrisreedrules said:
Well his boss offered him 10% off if he could pay up front, and the full amount if he chose to pay in $100 increments off each paycheck. I told him no matter what tell the owner that he would have to think about whatever options were presented to him. I told him to wait until next week and offer up 25% off to pay the full price up front. I know none of this is preferable, but he needs to keep his job at this location and to do that he is going to have to pay something.
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I'd be giving a "Thanks, but no thanks," to those options in a heartbeat.

What happens if he makes another mistake a month from now? Be out $1000 *and* lose his job or pay more money? It's not worth it. He ought to put his foot down and end this before it even starts.

It would take some really, really special circumstances to make me put up with that. You already said he's not making much money at this place. Why does he want to stick around so badly?
 
I can remember times during my CFI days the prospect of losing my job was untenable. It's great advice never to get into a situation where you need your job more than the company needs you, but it's not always feasible, especially at the entry level. I don't know what the market is like for CFIs at the moment, but I can understand his willingness to consider paying. If he is a contractor (dubious IRS-wise, as noted), then there should indeed be a contract, which probably says he's responsible for the deductible. So the owner might be taking a hardline, but he would be legally in the right.

I put up with a whole lot of BS at one of my CFI jobs, and I remember my lack of leverage weighing on me daily.
 
I'd offer him $50/mo with nothing upfront. Take it or leave it. The whole thing of him offering a discount to pay the full amount upfront reeks of disgusting. If he gives you any crap tell him you have other job offers and the social media wants to know the name of the school and who he is. Does he own the place? Does he answer to anybody? Seriously, if you only make 1K a month, you got nothing to loose to walk and maintain your integrity. Easy for me to say, but I think you'd find quite a few guys pulling for you to help you find another CFI gig. That guy in the DC area is often looking for CFI's here and I take it they make better money. But, I understand if the ability to move is a player. It sounds like he's got some kind of crazy leverage to even have the balls to address you in this way.

PS: I just read the post where the offended "needs his job at this location". That's pretty much end of story. Owner knows it and has you by the balls. Take what he gives you. You're screwed.

The more one ties himself down in this career, the fewer options he will have to move ahead.
 
chrisreedrules said:
Well his boss offered him 10% off if he could pay up front, and the full amount if he chose to pay in $100 increments off each paycheck. I told him no matter what tell the owner that he would have to think about whatever options were presented to him. I told him to wait until next week and offer up 25% off to pay the full price up front. I know none of this is preferable, but he needs to keep his job at this location and to do that he is going to have to pay something.
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What your buddy does is ultimately up to him, but he at least needs to realize that paying for things like this is not normal. To put things in perspective we have a bugaboo maybe once a month. It's just unavoidable with float planes. A ding to the leading edge, hitting an end cap, scraping the side of a float, busting a water rudder, breaking a v-brace, or even hitting so hard that you bend a bulkhead. Believe it or not those are are considered kind of normal, and they all cost money to fix. You might get a hard time or cussed out from the boss man, but not a demand for money or any kind of threat of losing your job.

Those are just the minor screw ups. You still have the major ones like sinking a plane, flipping one, gearing up an amphib, being in such rough water that your crease the firewall, the list goes on. Screw ups are part of the cost of doing business. I know a guy that geared one up and sunk one, and he was considered one of the best. He never lost his job or had to pay for anything.

We would all like to be perfect, but its not going to happen.
 
Acrofox said:
You should always work to keep yourself in a position where you never "need" your job more than it needs you.

-Fox
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Ah, crap.

Bernoulli Fan said:
I can remember times during my CFI days the prospect of losing my job was untenable. It's great advice never to get into a situation where you need your job more than the company needs you, but it's not always feasible, especially at the entry level. I don't know what the market is like for CFIs at the moment, but I can understand his willingness to consider paying. If he is a contractor (dubious IRS-wise, as noted), then there should indeed be a contract, which probably says he's responsible for the deductible. So the owner might be taking a hardline, but he would be legally in the right.

I put up with a whole lot of BS at one of my CFI jobs, and I remember my lack of leverage weighing on me daily.
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I seem to remember that a certain big company is in trouble in at least one jurisdiction for 1099'ing people that they, in essence, directly employ 7 days a week anyway.

I do not understand the willingness to dodge, bend or push the limits of the law.

cezzna said:
NOT cool.

If everyone in corporate aviation had to pay for the metal they bend, or the other fubars they create, we would all be fired. I've never seen anyone fired for something like this either. If it is chronic, yes, otherwise it usually wouldn't even warrant a dressing down.

Believe it or not, there are places to work that actually value their employees.

I would quit and move on. I remember thinking otherwise when I was young. I would have done anything to get to play with jet A.
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Even at the airlines. A trained First Officer represents around $40,000 of investment (and even more if you are not propeller trash), so purely from a monetary standpoint, sacking someone for a minor goof doesn't make sense. (If you're a negative jerk about it, then it does make sense, but that's another issue.) You'll eventually brush a wingtip, or something like that, like cmill says. Not saying to abandon hope, but nobody is perfect, and minor goofs are going to happen. It is the cost of doing business.

Ramp rash happens. The neat thing about hitting something with an airplane is that you'll probably never, ever make the same mistake again, and your willingness to shut down, get a tow (or a wingwalker, or whatever) goes way, way up. (And hopefully your taxi speed goes way, way down.)

IslandFlyer said:
Excellent points here and one that I guess I hadn't considered much was the fact that I was an independent contractor (which I just assumed most CFIs are) and as such I was basically renting this flight schools airplanes to give flight instruction in.
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This arrangement may be suspect depending on the nature of the operation, too.

I have never been a full time CFI employee so that may change my mentality a bit. But I will still stand by my statement that I would be happy to have a job after bending metal.

I had a co-worker make a $6,000 oops one day and basically management put him on "probation". The company ate the cost, told the guy not to let it happen again, told him to walk a fine line for 6 months, and be on his way. Now, if he lied or tried to cover it up for any reason, I think that would have been the end of his time with us.
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If you mess up, please fess up. Saves everyone involved a lot of trouble.
 
This situation is 100% the CFI's fault. The line guy has zero fault here, the CFI, as previously posted, hit a stationary object, and placing blame on him is just projecting. That said, at my former job we had a series of CFI's get a little to close to the fence. They got to have a private conversation with the boss but the school paid for it. I don't think he should have to pay but, weigh the pros v cons and make the best of the crappy situation.
 
sp238882 said:
This situation is 100% the CFI's fault. The line guy has zero fault here, the CFI, as previously posted, hit a stationary object, and placing blame on him is just projecting. That said, at my former job we had a series of CFI's get a little to close to the fence. They got to have a private conversation with the boss but the school paid for it. I don't think he should have to pay but, weigh the pros v cons and make the best of the crappy situation.
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Well, maybe not 100%. Of course, that depends on the nature of the employment relationship.

The independent contractor relationship for flight instructors is a really crappy relationship for a bunch of reasons, and a lot of the so-called independent CFIs are misclassified--mostly to avoid taxation, but also because you can sidestep liability.

Not an attorney, nor do I play one on television; please consult someone in your jurisdiction for full details, void where prohibited or taxed, ...
 
Jimmy_Norton said:
I didn't think it was legal for an employer to make an employee pay for expenses such as this, even if it is his fault. If he crashed the airplane, would the flight school come after him for $100K?
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My flight school had a deductible of around 3000$ for wing tips and other easy to damage parts, the PIC would be held responsible for it. if you would land belly up and wreak the plane they would take care of it.
 
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