What is wrong with pilots

Low on the totem pole right now with the two in front of me about to leave. In like Flynn. Been flying when neither can make a flight. I'm being sarcastic on the loans. It's manageable. Just trying to avoid regionals at all cost. May have to at some point and probably will have to. :( I know everyone has to do what they have to do and for some its no fun. I'm enjoying what I do. It's not the way I saw it when I started on my private, but it works for me. You know things are interesting when the day you get your CFI, your first instructor is there to congratulate you and tells you he just took a desk job with an insurance agency. I've been fighting everyday since then not to encounter the same situation. It's tough no matter what you take. Just have to try and stay positive somehow. For me, every time I take off I'm reminded why I'm doing this.
 
Pilot isn't the only profession where people amass tons of debt to make a mediocre salary in the end. Think about lawyers, the cost of law school, and the job at the end. Unless you go to one of the top 10 schools, you're likely going to be making around 30K when you finish. However, the cost of going to just about any decent law school rivals ERAU prices. Even if you do get lucky and land the 140K a year job out of law school, you're likely stuck working 50-80 hour weeks.

Heck, even my coworkers here amass tons of debt just to make a mediocre salary - and they don't even have a specialized degree! One of my coworkers went to Georgetown University and has a whopping total tuition of around 250K for a business degree. Another one of my coworkers went to American University and has 150K plus in debt for a finance degree. Even my own girlfriend went to a school that cost 80K all in all and has an elementary education degree. However, she is paid well at this point since she works for the government.

Just remember, it's not always pilots amassing large amounts of debt for junk wages!
 
HerrGruyere said:
Pilot isn't the only profession where people amass tons of debt to make a mediocre salary in the end. Think about lawyers, the cost of law school, and the job at the end. Unless you go to one of the top 10 schools, you're likely going to be making around 30K when you finish. However, the cost of going to just about any decent law school rivals ERAU prices. Even if you do get lucky and land the 140K a year job out of law school, you're likely stuck working 50-80 hour weeks.

Heck, even my coworkers here amass tons of debt just to make a mediocre salary - and they don't even have a specialized degree! One of my coworkers went to Georgetown University and has a whopping total tuition of around 250K for a business degree. Another one of my coworkers went to American University and has 150K plus in debt for a finance degree. Even my own girlfriend went to a school that cost 80K all in all and has an elementary education degree. However, she is paid well at this point since she works for the government.

Just remember, it's not always pilots amassing large amounts of debt for junk wages!
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Kansas City is not, by any definition, a "Top Tier" city or even what I consider a city that any first world nation would be comfortable having. Given those sad facts, the law firms in KC are not among the most impressive in the US either. Even at that, starting salaries at the "Top firms" in KC are in the $90k range - and with very few exceptions they are not hiring grads of top ten law schools. In general, to hire a high-end professional (exceptions are engineers and architects) in KC like a surgeon or a lawyer - I'm talking a cut above the average medical or law school grad, superstar type talent - they have to have a preexisting relationship to KC like family or something. Nobody, given a choice out of a top-ten school, will willingly take a job in KC usually. Even with that substandard basis attorneys can start at $90k for upper-tier firms and $60-$75k for others. Accountants for a Big Four firm will generally start in the $70k+ range. You can go to a state school, five year program generally and if you have excellent grades and ace the interview you can get on with a Big Four (KPMG, Deloitte Touche, Pricewaterhouse Coopers, Ernst & Young) and make six-figures while still in your 20's. Engineering pays well. Computer Science too. Many things give a much greater bang for the buck educationally than aviation. Unless you're Gulfstream Girl.
 
WacoFan said:
Kansas City is not, by any definition, a "Top Tier" city or even what I consider a city that any first world nation would be comfortable having. Given those sad facts, the law firms in KC are not among the most impressive in the US either. Even at that, starting salaries at the "Top firms" in KC are in the $90k range - and with very few exceptions they are not hiring grads of top ten law schools. In general, to hire a high-end professional (exceptions are engineers and architects) in KC like a surgeon or a lawyer - I'm talking a cut above the average medical or law school grad, superstar type talent - they have to have a preexisting relationship to KC like family or something. Nobody, given a choice out of a top-ten school, will willingly take a job in KC usually. Even with that substandard basis attorneys can start at $90k for upper-tier firms and $60-$75k for others. Accountants for a Big Four firm will generally start in the $70k+ range. You can go to a state school, five year program generally and if you have excellent grades and ace the interview you can get on with a Big Four (KPMG, Deloitte Touche, Pricewaterhouse Coopers, Ernst & Young) and make six-figures while still in your 20's. Engineering pays well. Computer Science too. Many things give a much greater bang for the buck educationally than aviation. Unless you're Gulfstream Girl.
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I see what you mean. In Raleigh, the law firm I worked at the litigation attorney who was only three years older than I made only 10-15K more than I did, putting him right around the 38K mark. The partners made in the 100s, probably, considering the size of their houses and that they drove Mazeratis. If he went to the law school he said he did, I'm sure his tuition was around 100K.

The thing is, the loans to go to some of these schools are outrageous. Granted, not every law school is mega big bucks expensive, but going on the adage that those who go to good schools get the good jobs, most students will head to the good schools with high tuition. Sort of on the same note, I didn't go to a "good" school, so to speak (ECU go pirates!), but I still landed a good job. I dunno, it all depends on how you look at it.

I was just making an example, though, that you can still accrue a massive amount of debt for a low paying job.
 
brian434 said:
So most of us spent very good money to become a pilot. Out of college we work our **** off to build flight time and get valuable experience. Even after getting some decent time in our log books we're still asked to work for <$30,000. On top of that there are training contracts, roommates during training, and a general lack of respect for who we are or what we do.


That's it. I'm done venting...
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I started flying in the late 70's in which flying was not as expensive as it is today. We did not need things such as PIC time, degrees, but you had to make connections or work for a airline and move up from the inside such as ramp agent. Working for a commuter back in the day required an ATP and about 2500/500. Commuter pilot pay was in the range of 600 - 800 dollars a month maybe in which pilots were able to advance his or her career in a couple of years not 10 or 15 years. Pilots were respected in the 70's and 80's in which the country went through a generational change whereas air travel became popular. Public disrespect and management disrespect are two different things in which involves a perception shift of individuals. No way in hell would I go through this again. I paid about 1200 dollars for my private and never rode on an airliner until I had the ATP.
 
HerrGruyere said:
Pilot isn't the only profession where people amass tons of debt to make a mediocre salary in the end. Think about lawyers, the cost of law school, and the job at the end. Unless you go to one of the top 10 schools, you're likely going to be making around 30K when you finish. However, the cost of going to just about any decent law school rivals ERAU prices. Even if you do get lucky and land the 140K a year job out of law school, you're likely stuck working 50-80 hour weeks.

Heck, even my coworkers here amass tons of debt just to make a mediocre salary - and they don't even have a specialized degree! One of my coworkers went to Georgetown University and has a whopping total tuition of around 250K for a business degree. Another one of my coworkers went to American University and has 150K plus in debt for a finance degree. Even my own girlfriend went to a school that cost 80K all in all and has an elementary education degree. However, she is paid well at this point since she works for the government.

Just remember, it's not always pilots amassing large amounts of debt for junk wages!
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True. I was talking with my sister yesterday about this very issue, who happens to be in school to become a lawyer. It's exactly how you describe it: starting salary for lawyers is awfully low, and it takes a lot of sacrifice and persistence to land a job which pays roughly just as much as a first-year regional position. I hear the market for journalists is also not too much better than that of pilots. Both of those professions are seeing a huge oversupply of labor with not enough jobs to match them all up. It's all based on supply and demand as many are fond of reminding others. Pure capitalism just isn't benefitting the workers in some professions.
 
HerrGruyere said:
I see what you mean. In Raleigh, the law firm I worked at the litigation attorney who was only three years older than I made only 10-15K more than I did, putting him right around the 38K mark. The partners made in the 100s, probably, considering the size of their houses and that they drove Mazeratis. If he went to the law school he said he did, I'm sure his tuition was around 100K.

The thing is, the loans to go to some of these schools are outrageous. Granted, not every law school is mega big bucks expensive, but going on the adage that those who go to good schools get the good jobs, most students will head to the good schools with high tuition. Sort of on the same note, I didn't go to a "good" school, so to speak (ECU go pirates!), but I still landed a good job. I dunno, it all depends on how you look at it.

I was just making an example, though, that you can still accrue a massive amount of debt for a low paying job.
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Almost all law schools are equally expensive. Syracuse, which isn't really that good of a law school? $40,000 a year when I was applying. My school? $32,000 when I started, but I think it's closer to $36,000 a year in just tuition. Michigan Law? $40,000 a year. Harvard law? $50,000 a year. The differences in tuition between these places are, in the end, small. The differences in "academic standing" is huge.

Further, where you go to law school has to do with how well you did on the LSAT, not how good of a lawyer you'll be.
 
Your mother likes pet names. I assume you do too. Should I address you as Counsel or should I find something else?
 
terdferg23 said:
Screw 121. GO CORPORATE 91! :)network and be merry. Sure I can't afford to make my payments on my college loans. I don't own a house. They can't take my degree, hours, and experience. Networking is already starting to pay off. I'd stay clear or regionals, fly corporate until you have the hours and make a jump at the majors. That's my plan. I'd rather have beers with my boss than hate a boss I don't even know. Warning, This plan is subject to change without notice
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To add to what z987k said, if a jump to the majors out of corporate is a move up, you're doing corporate very VERY wrong depending on what you want/need. If flying a building is above all else, then corporate won't do it for you I guess. :D

My purse is ready
 
UAL747400 said:
To add to what z987k said, if a jump to the majors out of corporate is a move up, you're doing corporate very VERY wrong depending on what you want/need. If flying a building is above all else, then corporate won't do it for you I guess. :D

My purse is ready
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Maybe he's right seat in the corp piston? If he's on a jet, then either he made terrible financial decisions regarding college or is part of the problem, and I have no sympathy whatsoever.
 
There is a lot that corporate can't offer that a major can. There is no one size fits all. Fly corporate for 5 years and get back to me how great it is.
 
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