What is wrong with pilots

Ian J said:
When you're fresh out of college you're simply going to have a lower standard of living than when you were living at home with your parents. If your family enjoys a middle class lifestyle don't think for a minute you are going to continue living that lifestyle when you graduate and get a job. You have to start at the bottom and get paid less because you're new, don't know as much, and aren't as valuable. Once the years go by things will probably improve. Sure you could have some bad luck along the way with furloughs, lay-offs, etc, but generally most of you in your early 20s will be doing just fine by the time you're forty.
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But there are careers where you can have that quality of life right out of college. Mind you that is very rare, but the problem is that for the amount of training and expense it requires being an airline pilot really should be one of those careers. An engineer can make $50,000 a year at graduation with no debt from flying, likewise for several other fields. So why is it that one of the most expensive degrees to get has one of the lowest 1st year salaries? Supply and demand again.

BUT, a big part of the problem in my opinion is that everybody is dead set on taking the same career path. Everybody I go to school with has the exact same plan: flight instruct to build hours, get a job at Skywest for $24,000 a year, make it up to captain, take a pay cut to go to a major airline, and live in an Atlanta suburb until they die. Doesn't sound like fun to me when there are so many cool jobs in aviation.
 
thevideographer said:
But there are careers where you can have that quality of life right out of college. Mind you that is very rare, but the problem is that for the amount of training and expense it requires being an airline pilot really should be one of those careers. An engineer can make $50,000 a year at graduation with no debt from flying, likewise for several other fields. So why is it that one of the most expensive degrees to get has one of the lowest 1st year salaries? Supply and demand again.

BUT, a big part of the problem in my opinion is that everybody is dead set on taking the same career path. Everybody I go to school with has the exact same plan: flight instruct to build hours, get a job at Skywest for $24,000 a year, make it up to captain, take a pay cut to go to a major airline, and live in an Atlanta suburb until they die. Doesn't sound like fun to me when there are so many cool jobs in aviation.
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You don't need a degree to be an airline pilot. Why does an engineer make $50,000 the first year and a pilot does not? Because the company does not have to spend $30,000 training the engineer once they hire them. Engineers usually learn the ropes during a summer internship between semesters in college. Essentially you are partially paying for your own training before you take your 30%+ raise to second year pay. Crappy but that is the way it is.
 
thevideographer said:
BUT, a big part of the problem in my opinion is that everybody is dead set on taking the same career path. Everybody I go to school with has the exact same plan: flight instruct to build hours, get a job at Skywest for $24,000 a year, make it up to captain, take a pay cut to go to a major airline, and live in an Atlanta suburb until they die. Doesn't sound like fun to me when there are so many cool jobs in aviation.
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Airline flying isn't for everyone.

Neither is living in or near Atlanta, for that matter. I personally find this end of the universe much more agreeable:
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Jet said:
You don't need a degree to be an airline pilot. Why does an engineer make $50,000 the first year and a pilot does not? Because the company does not have to spend $30,000 training the engineer once they hire them. Engineers usually learn the ropes during a summer internship between semesters in college. Essentially you are partially paying for your own training before you take your 30%+ raise to second year pay. Crappy but that is the way it is.
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Meanwhile, Air China sends people to the US off the street, pays for all of their training, and pays them a fair wage. And has better customer service than airlines here. So do we have to put up with the status quo, or is there a better way to do it?
 
thevideographer said:
Meanwhile, Air China sends people to the US off the street, pays for all of their training, and pays them a fair wage. And has better customer service than airlines here. So do we have to put up with the status quo, or is there a better way to do it?
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Air China doesn't have to bid with others for flying, they have their name on the side of the planes and sell their own tickets. We, the pilot group, tried to break the status quo a few times and were thrown to the street by other regionals who would do it for less.
 
thevideographer said:
But there are careers where you can have that quality of life right out of college. Mind you that is very rare, but the problem is that for the amount of training and expense it requires being an airline pilot really should be one of those careers. An engineer can make $50,000 a year at graduation with no debt from flying, likewise for several other fields. So why is it that one of the most expensive degrees to get has one of the lowest 1st year salaries? Supply and demand again.

BUT, a big part of the problem in my opinion is that everybody is dead set on taking the same career path. Everybody I go to school with has the exact same plan: flight instruct to build hours, get a job at Skywest for $24,000 a year, make it up to captain, take a pay cut to go to a major airline, and live in an Atlanta suburb until they die. Doesn't sound like fun to me when there are so many cool jobs in aviation.
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The expense you put into training, or making yourself employable is somewhat irrelevant to what I, as a potential employer, will pay you to work for me. That's a personal problem. The fact that so many people - JC is full of them - are willing to spend as much as they do, to work for the wages that are present, tells me the wages are probably just fine. Or, that people that want to be pilots are bad at math. Perhaps both. When people stop mortgaging their futures to get really crappy paying jobs in an unstable industry - then wages will go up. It's simple. Want a return on your education investment - be a petroleum engineer - that can't get enough of them and average starting salaries are $80k plus.
 
But paying for pilot training isn't just a hobby of mine. It's something that the airlines need and cannot function without (unless they are willing to pay for 100% of training). As a required, indispensable employee of a company I would expect to get paid a wage that is enough to live on and compensates me for my expenses. And that is why I will not work for a regional airline, not unless they decide to pay more or the "pilot shortage" becomes so bad that they have to pay more. I wish more pilots would join me.
 
thevideographer said:
But paying for pilot training isn't just a hobby of mine. It's something that the airlines need and cannot function without (unless they are willing to pay for 100% of training). As a required, indispensable employee of a company I would expect to get paid a wage that is enough to live on and compensates me for my expenses. And that is why I will not work for a regional airline, not unless they decide to pay more or the "pilot shortage" becomes so bad that they have to pay more. I wish more pilots would join me.
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A fully trained pilot is something the airlines NEED...yet is something the general population (yourself included) is picking up the tab for, at least through ATP rating. That's a beautiful business model to me. Why would the airlines change if so many are willingly doing this? You yourself are paying but withholding your services from the airlines until they pay more. I'm sure others are too. But, the simple calculus tells me that you guys have already spent the money, your idealism will fade and you will eventually come to work for me at an airline for crap wages, because at that point you've already spent the money and need to get a return out of it. Airlines have lots of dough when compared to the average pilot who's paying off massive student loan debt. My bet is that they will be able to wait you out. I'm not going to pay $100k to train myself to work the frier at McDonald's in hopes that they will pay a livable wage, commensurate with my educational expenditure just because French Fries are essential to McDonald's. Instead I'll do the career math beforehand.
 
brian434 said:
Well I just spoke to a person operating a PA32 and BE58 on 135 certificate. Pay is salary of $36,400. No contract. Been in business for 30 years. Sounds like a place I could work with.
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Are your referencing a company in Michigan up by the bridge?
 
Guys, I know the largest 121 demographic on this site is regional pilots, so many of the posts are skewed in that direction. However, don't get caught up in the trap of saying "Why would anyone pay $_______ for a $20,000/year job?" Worse yet, don't think that you're being smarter than the average bear by advocating piston jobs, paying marginally more, as an alternative to going and building multi-turbine time (eventually, the multi-turbine jobs will almost always lead to higher paying jobs).

The pay in this industry does go up outside the regional industry, so take that to heart when considering whether loans are a worthwhile investment for your future.
 
dasleben said:
Guys, I know the largest 121 demographic on this site is regional pilots, so many of the posts are skewed in that direction. However, don't get caught up in the trap of saying "Why would anyone pay $_______ for a $20,000/year job?" Worse yet, don't think that you're being smarter than the average bear by advocating piston jobs, paying marginally more, as an alternative to going and building multi-turbine time (eventually, the multi-turbine jobs will almost always lead to higher paying jobs).

The pay in this industry does go up outside the regional industry, so take that to heart when considering whether loans are a worthwhile investment for your future.
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But quite a few bros on this site will never make it beyond the regionals, so is a loan really worth the gamble of never getting a job that pays enough to actually pay it off plus have a life?
 
A-300F4-622R said:
But quite a few bros on this site will never make it beyond the regionals, so is a loan really worth the gamble of never getting a job that pays enough to actually pay it off plus have a life?
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How so? Id say a good majority move on and those who are "lifers" hold some sort of seniority that allows them a decent QOL.[/quote]
 
brian434 said:
So most of us spent very good money to become a pilot. Out of college we work our **** off to build flight time and get valuable experience. Even after getting some decent time in our log books we're still asked to work for <$30,000. On top of that there are training contracts, roommates during training, and a general lack of respect for who we are or what we do.


That's it. I'm done venting...
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You should go to Asia dude. Completely opposite here
 
Screw 121. GO CORPORATE 91! :)network and be merry. Sure I can't afford to make my payments on my college loans. I don't own a house. They can't take my degree, hours, and experience. Networking is already starting to pay off. I'd stay clear or regionals, fly corporate until you have the hours and make a jump at the majors. That's my plan. I'd rather have beers with my boss than hate a boss I don't even know. Warning, This plan is subject to change without notice
 
terdferg23 said:
Screw 121. GO CORPORATE 91! :)network and be merry. Sure I can't afford to make my payments on my college loans. I don't own a house. They can't take my degree, hours, and experience. Networking is already starting to pay off. I'd stay clear or regionals, fly corporate until you have the hours and make a jump at the majors. That's my plan. I'd rather have beers with my boss than hate a boss I don't even know. Warning, This plan is subject to change without notice
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You're doing corporate VERY wrong if you can't afford your college loans.
 
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