9E TA Reached
- Thread starter v1valarob
- Start date
jynxyjoe
Queso King
The numbers on this contract value are out there for public consumption. Obviously if you think the numbers are lies then there's no talking to you, otherwise I'd say get educated.
How many idiots did you think we had?
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Payout is within 30 days I think.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
I have a feeling this yes vote is the beginning of the end for me in the industry. Now that banana will be passed around to the other regionals and we will have unspeakable things done to us with it. With the stagnation that we've already seen this job is barely worth it.
v1valarob
Well-Known Member
I seriously feel sick.
Am I doing that math correctly that with roughly 2500 pilots, 2150 voted, and only 300 pilots voted no? Did I manage to find all 300 pilots that were against it in the past 2 weeks?
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Well here is a question re: negotiating capital with other regional contracts:
We vote no: our company shuts down, ALPA contract flushed into the toilet. How ca. You use pay rates and work rules that do not exist anymore?
We vote yes: our concessions are achieved outside section 6, company claims that in order not to declare bankruptcy they have to have those rates that pinnacle agreed to?
Not really understanding the "have it both ways crowd".
We vote no: our company shuts down, ALPA contract flushed into the toilet. How ca. You use pay rates and work rules that do not exist anymore?
We vote yes: our concessions are achieved outside section 6, company claims that in order not to declare bankruptcy they have to have those rates that pinnacle agreed to?
Not really understanding the "have it both ways crowd".
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
I don't really understand what you're asking, though I'm still not done my first cup of coffee of the day.
I think our concern is that our company has basically stopped negotiations until they see how your guys vote ends. Obviously that means they're waiting to say "well....look how little Pinnacle is getting paid. We just simply cant afford to compete." That or they'll manufacture a bankruptcy and play the same game. But if the pinnacle pilots would have stood up and said no, that would have been an indication that it might not work.
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
If we had said "no" our contract as a metric goes away and they can probably claim that giving you similar rates will lead to a similar fate.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
- You're in section 6, we weren't.
- You're parent company has 600 something million in the bank, we were working under Delta loans.
- You're company is wildly better positioned for the future to grab up flying financing it themselves, which mainline companies will need going forward, and delta just removed Pinnacle from the regional rat race. Neither American nor anyone else will be coming to Pinnacle to fly their planes and give the money to Delta.
- We approved an industry average concessionary contract in bankruptcy that over the long term will would stagnate the regional industry in the long run, but there is no long term regional industry. On top of that, we are owned by Delta, there is no long term Pinnacle. Obviously I would have liked to keep our JCBA rates but that isn't an option.
- Everyone elses crap contract in the industry, including Colgan's and Pinnacles and Mesa's, didn't stop Mesaba from getting a concessionary contract that was on par with ASA's, and it didn't stop us from negotiating the JCBA years later with those two pilot groups merged into ours.
- Our contract costing doesn't help ASA, but maybe a few other companies can bring their wages up above our level and that will help you.
- Let's stop pretending that this TA is any sort of long term language. We are middle of the road (all compensation, soft pay and hard pay and benefits), we are still cheaper than GoJets and compass, and our airplanes will still go there. Now they will go there a little slower.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
But we are making similar rates now and doing ok. I'm certainly not saying that a no vote would lead to rainbows and butterflies. And I'm certainly not blaming anybody. That's a really crappy situation you guys are in.
I really think you guys got tricked. This delta bridge program isn't going to work. They never do. Was just a carrot to turn no votes into yes votes. It was done quickly to avoid any questioning of the details by either Delta or Pinnacle pilots. I'd even argue that this whole thing wasn't even about pinnacle, it's about putting pressure on everyone else.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
If you want to argue that I would point, as fact, to Menke (old CEO) on a conference call to the shareholders saying Delta told him they wanted Pinnacle in bankruptcy to trash the JCBA and reset the regional contract rates. Menke, in one of the only things I would thank him for, "wrang and ran" on Delta pulling the mask off for just a moment and gave us leverage during the companies 2nd ask which the bankruptcy court judge rejected.
Delta did this on purpose, it is fact, you are all going to have a gun to your head next. Either way Pinnacle gets put down, maybe you guys can do better.
I wish we'd done better for you guys at ASA. Obviously Eagle already made their concessionary TA with American, and American is not as awful a partner as Delta has been. I hope you guys get a lot of flying for American or whoever is letting contracts out next. Who knows, I might be working there in a few years if the glorious 2009 pilot shortage doesn't come (well not really, hoping for a job in town in a few months but who knows).
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
All good points. Let me once again point out that my frustration isn't at the pinnacle pilots. You guys were given a choice between a kick to the nuts or a kick to the face. I don't envy you guys at all and hope you land on your feet. Nor am I trying to pull a trip7 and pretend my company is like narnia.
There is one group at fault with this and that is DL management. They knew what they wanted and exactly how to get it. Every time I see RA in the safety video talking about how DL is founded on respect, integrity, etc i feel like throwing stuff at the TV screen.
I've seen the numbers. They are pathetic. By voting yes on this contract you have secured your job for a few years but have lowered the bar for many others trying to vote in a better contracts.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Yeah I feel the same. I said this in the beginning, I'll take my lumps from Eagle or ASA, you guys have every reason to feel disappointed and angry.
On the other side of the coin, I believe the union, the MEC, the officers who have been leading us through this. They are honest, they've been on the inside, they feel this is our only way forward. I learned as much as I could and I agree with them. At least it wasn't the 2nd ask.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
And even with that concessionary contract it's still worth more than a number of Delta regionals under us who will have an even easier time going forward since our concessionary contract is worth more than theirs.... again... almost a decade now.
We're going to be comaired soon enough, so I suggest to everyone who has been sitting on their thumbs instead of negotiating a contract to keep on praying someone else comes in, raises the bar for them, so they get a 5th and 6th and 10th opportunity to do something.
Sorry my JCBA didn't last longer for you, but it was gone from the negotiating table the moment we filled chapter 11.
Every company is going to put a gun to your head and wink during negotiations.
Why we grab line pilots, train them as negotiators and put them up against the companies well-trained attorneys and professional negotiators, I have no idea.
If I hear me more "Well, considering the circumstances, it's the best we could do" from a negotiator who 12 months previous was reading a script for the ALPA phone tree, I'm going to poop in public.
Why we grab line pilots, train them as negotiators and put them up against the companies well-trained attorneys and professional negotiators, I have no idea.
If I hear me more "Well, considering the circumstances, it's the best we could do" from a negotiator who 12 months previous was reading a script for the ALPA phone tree, I'm going to poop in public.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Is the crew lounge public? Maybe...somewhere near the v-files?
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm not in your position. The information I had in front of me was compelling, and I have no illusion of fairness in a bankruptcy process. Maybe it would have been better if we'd said no, shut down, and kept the respect of everyone on the internet. If there were just some sort of coin star that would turn R-E-S-P-E-C-T and turn it into something like dollar bills that would be awesome. Sorry I couldn't work more of those lyrics into my post too, trying figure out how to turn the coinstar thing into a "find out what it means to me" line or even the TCB line.
Anyway, everyone else, show us how it's done next time.