9E TA Reached

Was wondering when you were going to trot out the non-union airline card. For the record, I don't oppose a union here, so I'm not even sure what your point is.

My point is that non-union airlines have truly dragged down wages, benefits, and work rules. And the affect has been severe. While PFT and similar things may be a small drag, they don't even come close to having the negative impact of the other problems, and I don't see people around here harping on those issues at all. It's a singular focus on PFT, "PFJ," and RJ transition courses. None of which have ever negatively affected Section 6 or concessionary bargaining, and have only marginally reduced the need for regionals to raise first year pay.

If you think guys paying for these bridge programs and other shortcuts aren't dragging down the industry, you've changed your tune. I whole heartedly believe they are dragging down pay in the industry as without them airlines would have to increase their wages in order to attract talent. Instead, they come up with these schemes like bridge programs rather than increase pay. Once upon a time, I thought you believed that as well. Seems I was mistaken....

I haven't changed my tune on RJ courses. I've never had a problem with them. Hell, I worked as a sim instructor for one of the large RJ transition courses for a while. PFT is certainly a problem, albeit not as big a problem as the other things mentioned, so I haven't changed my tune there, either.
 
Such utter nonsense. You guys focus on something that means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, but ignore things that really are the problems in our profession. Hell, one of the people leading the criticism here works for a non-union airline! There's a real problem dragging down our profession, not some kid paying a few thousand bucks for an RJ course. While you worry about PFT, PFJ, and RJ transition courses, the real problems affecting us are non-union competitors, state-sponsored foreign airlines, lack of job portability, regional RFP wars, and a whole host of other real problems. But those don't get much attention, because talking about them doesn't bring you the same sense of self-importance as yelling at some kid for going to JetU and bragging about how you "earned" your job.

Pilots truly are their own worst enemies, Rocketman, but not for the reason that you choose to harp on.

We can agree to disagree. The issues brought up here are a root cause of a lot of other things. Kinda like how banning the gun doesn't stop the gun violence if the mental issues are never dealt with/fixed. As to the other problems you mentioned (which I don't really view the RFP wars and non-union competitors as serious problems but whatever), when are we going to have a national seniority list for job portability and when can I stop allowing foreign airlines to fly into my country? Oh right, I have pretty much no say and no power there other than writing a letter to the idiots that "represent" me in government. I guess I should focus my energies on the things I actually can affect, no? Start small.
 
My point is that non-union airlines have truly dragged down wages, benefits, and work rules. And the affect has been severe. While PFT and similar things may be a small drag, they don't even come close to having the negative impact of the other problems, and I don't see people around here harping on those issues at all. It's a singular focus on PFT, "PFJ," and RJ transition courses. None of which have ever negatively affected Section 6 or concessionary bargaining, and have only marginally reduced the need for regionals to raise first year pay.

Hence the reason I'm not against a union over here, but people actually have to go to non union carriers to convert them first. They don't spring fully formed (well, maybe Compass) as union carriers. There's a process, usually brought about by management earning the union they deserve. As for them dragging down wages, I used to think that, but I'm not so sure. Let's see.....Skywest isn't dragging Pinnacle down. GoJets is union as well, and they've been the poster child for industry drag. I just got a 2% pay raise thanks to new contracts signed by union carriers, and with the new TAs at AMR and United along with the contractual raises at Delta, I'll likely get four times that raise in 2014. If US Airways would get their act together, it'd be even bigger. Your argument may have held water in the early 2000s, but ALPA seems to be doing a good job of earning back despite the non-union carriers. I think poor management and the economy has had more to do with the downfall lately. The two major non-union carriers out there are jetBlue and Virgin. Virgin is small and likely to get smaller. jetBlue will likely have a union by the end of next year. The economy/industry can NOT support the 90s wages, and to think we're going to get back to that is living in a fantasy world. We need to focus on work rules and maintaining what we already have rather than try to get back to wages that sent most of the big carriers into bankruptcy. Yes, 9/11 had a bit to do with it, but United, Delta, Northwest, etc were already headed that direction. 9/11 provided a very convienient reason.

And, yes, "transition" courses have negatively impacted bargaining. Look at Section 3 Compensation, first year pay. That's what I've been getting at.
 
Hmmm I am pretty sure most feel that ALPA is the problem nowadays, not non union carriers. I am not one but there are way more people displeased with ALPA than JB, VX, Etc. It is common knowledge.
 
He's right when it comes down to it. The largest hill we have to overcome at jetBlue isn't convincing people to unionize. It's getting them to accept ALPA.....

Do you think it's leadership?

I am a bat-swinging supporter of organized labor in the airline business, starting before some of the loudest voices on the forum were on tricycles, but I can't get behind Moak and that absolutely frustrates the beans out of me.

I just feel like it's World War One again: All of us pilots are in the trenches, mending after our last epic asskicking and the whistle blows for us to go take that hill, only to get obliterated halfway and sent back.

We have no other choice, no other plan, but if we give up ground, give the enemy concessions and our women, we can all call it a major victory because it could have been much, MUCH worse.

Rinse, repeat.

Wait, here comes the whistle again! CALL TO ACTION! Up! Over the wall! See you on the other side! ***PIFFF***

Meanwhile there's been a "gentleman's understanding" between us and the proverbial enemy all along and anyone who disagrees will be (figuratively) shot for treason and publicly dragged behind a carriage through the streets to prove a point to the other soldiers.

Hard to sell that.
 
Do you think it's leadership?

I am a bat-swinging supporter of organized labor in the airline business, starting before some of the loudest voices on the forum were on tricycles, but I can't get behind Moak and that absolutely frustrates the beans out of me.


I think it's a combination of things. A lot of the problem that may be unique to jetBlue is a lot of the senior pilots came from ALPA carriers that were beat down in the trenches (to continue your metaphor). I don't see near the same disdain from AMR furloghs here towards APA as I see from TWA, US Airways or United furloghs towards ALPA. Each has their unique situations and drama. But I do think leadership is part of the problem. There hasn't been (in my opinion) a strong union leadership on behalf of ALPA in decades. Another part of the equation is there are some PR issues involved. When your OC is insulting the pilots it's supposed to be convincing while looking down their nose at them, you're not going to get very far. Unions in general haven't weathered the bankruptcy storm well, so there aren't a whole lot of PR "wins" to point to. In fact, guys on the "direct relationship" side of the fence here are already pointing at Pinnacle as a union failure. It's the whole "We could give up 1.9% of our pay, get a contract and have it yanked anyway" argument. I can't argue against that since that's actually happened more often than a full pattern bargaining cycle lately. However, under the DR, most things could be unilaterally changed tomorrow anyway.
 
And, yes, "transition" courses have negatively impacted bargaining. Look at Section 3 Compensation, first year pay. That's what I've been getting at.

No, they really haven't. No management team has ever gone into bargaining and talked about how they don't need to pay more, because they have RJ transition courses. If it weren't for the courses, management would simply lower their minimums further and accept pilots without the RJ courses, and deal with the increased rate of failures and remedial training. Because all of that costs a hell of a lot less than giving hundreds of pilots pay raises. There was no set of circumstances that was going to result in higher pay, with or without RJ courses, until the ATP/1500 hour rule was ratified. That may give some leverage. But until that's in effect, a lack of RJ courses would do nothing to increase leverage.
 
Oh please, you can call it whatever you want but if:
1) You paid more money
B) You got an interview, and
IV) You weren't otherwise qualified to be interviewed
then:
F) You paid for your job.

It doesn't matter that some people didn't pass the "interview," because the entire scenario was a <expletive> shortcut to avoid actually earning the chance to get the job. But hey, whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night. It's also funny to hear Todd defending this in this thread. Soft spot for the other shortcutters even though you proclaim to be born again hard?

Come on guys, WTF? This all helps no one. The last few pages are just more of the perfect example of why for at least a decade or more we have been and continue to be our own worst enemies. This all needs to stop. No PFT, no PFJ, no PFI. Build your time, earn your interviews, earn and actually be qualified for your job. The shortcuts are why tons of us sit flying a "regional" jet across the freaking country for slave wages dreaming of mainline while the CEOs and executive vice presidents collect fatter paychecks. IT NEEDS TO STOP SOMEWHERE! Stop defending this crap. Get on the soapbox all you want, but if age 65 didn't slow the transitions to a worthwhile job, there would have been something else anyway. Maybe more codesharing or more "wonderful" TAs like Delta's last summer or more selling out scop for a miniscule payraise or something similarly ridiculous. Enough is enough.

Aren't you a Colgan guy, and an original Colgan (pre-ALPA days)? If so, your second paragraph is pot calling the kettle black.

As for the first part, back in 2007, Pinnacle's website had the minimums listed with 1000 total and 200 ME with astericks for both times. At the bottom of the page, the astericks listed 'lower flight time requirements for approved bridge program pilots.' To dissect your points one by one, first up is 'you paid more money.' But how so? With only a Comm-ME, the CFI route would have cost me getting the Comm-SE, then the CFI, double I, and MEI. Then working as a CFI would be great experience, but at an opportunity cost of not working at an airline. Those are all serious costs, and in the end of the day, I think my wallet would have lost what I spent at JetU anyway. Second, the "you weren't qualified otherwise to interview." But I was, under the bridge program requirements. As already written, Pinnacle in 2007 published the normal hiring requirements of 1000/200, and with an asterick, at the bottom listed that inidividual bridge programs had lower requirements. There were several programs. IIRC, Flight Safety Academy had a Pinnacle program that required 350 total time and 50 ME. JetU required no total time requirement, just a Comm/Inst/ME ratings. So under each different bridge program, you qualified based on the individual program requirements. It isn't really accurate to say that one was unqualified to interview and didn't have the time. You have to look at the individual program. Remember, despite your personal belief, 9E advertised two ways of getting an interview. Either get 1000/200 somehow on your own, or go through one of their approved bridge programs to get interviewed with lower hours. Their rationale was the bridge program guys would have almost no problems getting through the training program, as opposed to street hires. I'm not the one to make a case for equating more flight experience with RJ ground school/sim bridge training, but Pinnacle did that. All pilots were free to chose that path. Last point, "you paid for your job" is a big no. Gulfstream Academy was a true pay for a job, because when you paid for that program, you were basically buying 250 hrs in a Gulfstream Part 121 right seat as a first officer. No personal/HR interview with Gulfstream. You sat there and earned $8/hr, while regular FOs got double that at Gulfstream. That was a true PFJ program. The RJ bridge programs, like JetU, ALLATPs, etc, are not pay for a job. You aren't getting any actual airline flight time. What these programs are doing is hiring pilots with lower time agreements (that the reigonal airline agreed to) because with the specific airplane training, these airlines are willing to take lower flight hour experience in exchange for airplane-specific ground/sim school. It is not buying a job! I will agree it's buying airplane-specific ground and sim training, instead of CFIing or traffic work. 9E advertised both street-route and bridge program routes, and gave the requirements for both, on their own nwairlink.com career website. All pilots, in 2007, were free to choose from any method listed to get to Pinnacle. None of them were pay for job.
 
Was wondering when you were going to trot out the non-union airline card. For the record, I don't oppose a union here, so I'm not even sure what your point is. Should I have said "no" just because the job wasn't union? Turn down an option to live in base and escape a sinking ship? For that fact, BOTH CC and I work at non-union carriers. If you're gonna throw the punch, at least be equal about it.

If you think guys paying for these bridge programs and other shortcuts aren't dragging down the industry, you've changed your tune. I whole heartedly believe they are dragging down pay in the industry as without them airlines would have to increase their wages in order to attract talent. Instead, they come up with these schemes like bridge programs rather than increase pay. Once upon a time, I thought you believed that as well. Seems I was mistaken....
Pinnacle WAS offering increased package for newhires. Housing in training, 400 bucks a week (actually was more than 20.73/hr on a 75 month guarantee), 750 bucks bonus for completing IOE, and 500 bucks for sticking around 6 months. Also, they proposed a pay increase for first and second year FOs to bring them to industry standard. All that was turned down by a chest huff/puff of 9E ALPA, thinking they had leverage to gain a full contract instead of bandage fixes. Yeah that worked out well. Fact: in the regional industry, you don't have leverage against mainline. Unless you are ASA and have landing slots at ATL. No one has any leverage. It's no wonder Skywest, a non-union airline, is arguable the best performing regional airline in the country, weathering the storm better than any ALPA regional. The seniors don't sell out the juniors like they do at 9E.
 
I corrected myself in later post. You didn't buy a job. You bought the interview. WIthout the RJ program, would you have met the minimums for the job? No. You bought the interview via the RJ course. And to be fair, I do consider those that bought any transition course under the same umbrella. I just think Jet U was worse because of the almost criminal price they charged.
See post second from above. 9E advertised both street hire minimums and bridge program minimums. All pilots were free to choose from either option. To say you bought the interview isn't accurate either, because depending on which program you choose, you still get an interview once you get the respective minimums. IMO, paying for the Comm-SE, CFI, CFI-II, MEI, and then the opportunity cost of working as a CFI would have cost me probably about the same. And the longer worked as a CFI, the more that opportunity cost (start making the deduction not in your 20s, but in your 50s and 60s when you'd be earning the top money in the career, that's where you take the hit). I don't discount the merit that flight experience is important and that a pilot learns a lot. But the industry has no problem getting pilots to take any route. In a seniority based system, you'd have to understand some people taking a leg up, which would be considered smart in any profession, except here. If you were to write I "paid" to get a shortcut / short-track to the regionals, then I will agree with you. But other statements that I paid for the job or paid for the interview are inaccurate, because 9E's career website made it clear what they required, both for street hires and bridge program hires.

I misread then, and I apologize.



Maybe later in 2006, but they weren't around when I interviewed at Pinnacle. Back then they wanted guys that had experience. I barely met the mins after doing another flying job for nearly a year. The bridge programs, contrary to what other seem to think, came about because of a lack of qualified applicants. Rather than increase pay to attract people with experience, the bridge programs came about. ATP had bridge programs with a couple of airlines that got their instructors (note pilots with flying experience rather than wet ink on their ticket and some additional classroom experience) hired at lower minimums. I did look at ATP initially. I was mostly done with my CMEL and already had my IR, however in order to get the rest of my commercial and my CSEL there, they wanted me to start completely over. No thanks. The RJ transition course wasn't even on their website.
I was working at my job, and know for fact that at the end (3rd quarter/4th quarter) of 2006, the bridge programs were advertised on 9E's career website. I know because that is when I was researching all of them! You have a point about regional airline pay, but see post above about the pay increase 9E offered for first and second year that was turned down by ALPA because they thought they had leverage. And the bonuses 9E offered for newhires, that were also shutdown by ALPA. Without leverage.
 
Do you think it's leadership?

I am a bat-swinging supporter of organized labor in the airline business, starting before some of the loudest voices on the forum were on tricycles, but I can't get behind Moak and that absolutely frustrates the beans out of me.

I just feel like it's World War One again: All of us pilots are in the trenches, mending after our last epic asskicking and the whistle blows for us to go take that hill, only to get obliterated halfway and sent back.

We have no other choice, no other plan, but if we give up ground, give the enemy concessions and our women, we can all call it a major victory because it could have been much, MUCH worse.

Rinse, repeat.

Wait, here comes the whistle again! CALL TO ACTION! Up! Over the wall! See you on the other side! ***PIFFF***

Meanwhile there's been a "gentleman's understanding" between us and the proverbial enemy all along and anyone who disagrees will be (figuratively) shot for treason and publicly dragged behind a carriage through the streets to prove a point to the other soldiers.

Hard to sell that.

Doug, didn't you hear?! The call to action to STOP a US Customs pre-clearance at Abu Dhabi airport!! Hurry! Do you want to get downgraded from the 76 back to the Maddog?!? Why havne't you written your Congressmen yet about the travesty of a US Customs pre-clearance in Abu Dhabi?
 
No, they really haven't. No management team has ever gone into bargaining and talked about how they don't need to pay more, because they have RJ transition courses. If it weren't for the courses, management would simply lower their minimums further and accept pilots without the RJ courses, and deal with the increased rate of failures and remedial training. Because all of that costs a hell of a lot less than giving hundreds of pilots pay raises. There was no set of circumstances that was going to result in higher pay, with or without RJ courses, until the ATP/1500 hour rule was ratified. That may give some leverage. But until that's in effect, a lack of RJ courses would do nothing to increase leverage.

We're agreeing to disagree here. Personally, I think you're sticking your head in the sand. Sure, they'd lower the minimums, but a lot of the insurance companies (particularly in Pinnacle's case given the recent history) would probably have something to say about the hull coverages. It's not just about failure rates. Airlines have to deal with that even with 1000 hour guys. You start telling the insurance companies you're putting people with 1/4th the experience in the cockpit now, and they're not gonna let you slide with the same coverage for the same rates. So, it becomes a numbers game: is it cheaper to work with the insurance companies for a work around (ie transition courses) and pay the pilots less or the same or increase pay in order to attract a higher quality applicant. With the transition courses, it's cost neutral for the airline. Raising pay, however, isn't.

I can't show you one instance in the recent past where transition courses have FOR SURE negatively affected pay. Likewise, you can't show the same for non-union carriers, particularly since every contract recently has shown considerable gains in pay and scope.
 
Pinnacle WAS offering increased package for newhires. Housing in training, 400 bucks a week (actually was more than 20.73/hr on a 75 month guarantee), 750 bucks bonus for completing IOE, and 500 bucks for sticking around 6 months. Also, they proposed a pay increase for first and second year FOs to bring them to industry standard. All that was turned down by a chest huff/puff of 9E ALPA, thinking they had leverage to gain a full contract instead of bandage fixes. Yeah that worked out well. Fact: in the regional industry, you don't have leverage against mainline. Unless you are ASA and have landing slots at ATL. No one has any leverage. It's no wonder Skywest, a non-union airline, is arguable the best performing regional airline in the country, weathering the storm better than any ALPA regional. The seniors don't sell out the juniors like they do at 9E.

Likely would have worked, too (sticking with the whole contract rather than the band aid) if the industry hadn't come to a screeching halt a month later. It wasn't just the chest thumpers. Pinnacle was having trouble getting people to come and this was the best leverage the pilots had in getting a contract. We played the numbers. It failed. Sorry you didn't get your raise, but those are the breaks. It wasn't even against MAINLINE, so I'm not even sure why you're talking about that. It was against Pinnacle management agreeing to a full contract rather than a patchwork "fix." Oh, and the seniors sell out the juniors at plenty of airlines. Ask Delta, US Airways and even jetBlue.
 
I was working at my job, and know for fact that at the end (3rd quarter/4th quarter) of 2006, the bridge programs were advertised on 9E's career website. I know because that is when I was researching all of them! You have a point about regional airline pay, but see post above about the pay increase 9E offered for first and second year that was turned down by ALPA because they thought they had leverage. And the bonuses 9E offered for newhires, that were also shutdown by ALPA. Without leverage.

I stand by what I said. I interviewed in Feb 2006 and started in March. There were no "RJ courses" when I was instructing. And you can refer to my other post. At the time, almost every negotiator involved in dealing with a contract would have advised 9E's MEC to do what they did. Again, sorry you didn't get your raise, but AT THE TIME it was the best move towards a full contract, not just a fix for the company's issues. Hindsight's always 20/20. If I had it to do over again, I would have bought 3x the house I could afford and let the government bail me out, but I didn't.
 
The new TA as I read it blows... Hoping for the best for you guys.

As far as bridge/PFJ deals, in nearly every recent US fatal crash involving 121 ops, at least one of the pilots bought their job. Coincidence? Who knows.... I'm glad I didn't take that path.. There's a lot of cool stuff I would have missed.. Taking a turbo 206 for a month to get my student 100 hours is something I'll never forget. We literally canvassed the country. Flew to sturgis for bike week, Oshkosh for 4 hours of fun. BVI because we could. Down to a students beach house in box for a week to get away.... Jumping into a lake renegade with one of the Reps when I was just sitting around on a Sunday morning... ( it's amazing how fast those go on glassy water... ).


I shake my head at those, who's $100 hamburger experience was at a "school" approved strip, with their CFI
 
How does the saying go........"ignorance is bliss"?
Hopefully that isnt directed at me but if it is I'm pretty sure I said I was not one of those that thought that... Just stating what seems like everyone feels these days. I openly admit I support ALPA, I have been around it my whole life and know how important they are. With that said there is always room for improvement and before you go there, yes, I am planning on contributing. Not that I have a whole lot to add but atleast Ill try.
 
I know a lot of people who got the ATP RJ course for free. Well, sort of. The zero to hero ATP course included ~2 hours in their Citation-jet (which usually coincided with the owner needing to go visit his girlfriend, repositioning sim technicians, etc.) I know a lot of people who got the RJ course in-lieu of the thrilling 2 hours in the slowest jet known to mankind.

I consider both to be about equal in value, which isn't saying much.

One thing... back when I was applying to airlines, I got a call back from ASA and they flat out told me that I wouldn't get an interview without an RJ course. This was on the very tail end of the 06-08 hiring boom.
 
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