SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I'm sure they would argue that the training they received in their transition course is "experience." Not sure that I would agree, but I'm also not willing to say that they didn't earn their jobs.
9E TA Reached
- Thread starter v1valarob
- Start date
I dont have a dog in the fight but let me pose the question....
Some went to JetU to get hours/interview/whatever and some got hired with little experience.........
Where I did my training through IR (in MSP) I know for a fact that Mesaba was hiring people at such a frantic pace that the FBO could not keep instructors. They were moving so quickly that instructors were not 'graduating' their first students....Plenty got hired with little experience..... Hell I know of one CFII that got hired at Mesaba not even weeks after having MSP Center help her back to the airport (KFCM) -read: she got lost. The airport is easily tracked along a river and really cant be missed.
Hell, I know of people (JC members) that were hired with Dripping Wet Multi-Commercial tickets.
From the cheap seats there is no difference and the end result is the same....people got hired with little experience.
Some went to JetU to get hours/interview/whatever and some got hired with little experience.........
Where I did my training through IR (in MSP) I know for a fact that Mesaba was hiring people at such a frantic pace that the FBO could not keep instructors. They were moving so quickly that instructors were not 'graduating' their first students....Plenty got hired with little experience..... Hell I know of one CFII that got hired at Mesaba not even weeks after having MSP Center help her back to the airport (KFCM) -read: she got lost. The airport is easily tracked along a river and really cant be missed.
Hell, I know of people (JC members) that were hired with Dripping Wet Multi-Commercial tickets.
From the cheap seats there is no difference and the end result is the same....people got hired with little experience.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Something similar, albeit not quite so extreme, was happening to Comair Academy instructors in the late '90s. The official deal was that you did 1,200 hours instructing and then got a guaranteed interview. But when they needed pilots, they would frequently call guys up for interviews with far less time, and some got hired with as little as 800 hours instructing, from what I remember. Granted, that gave them over 1,000 TT, but that was a bit light in those days.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I think my main beef is with programs that offer people a chance at an interview they would not otherwise be qualified for in exchange for money. The minimums at Pinnacle were 1000 total and 200 multi......unless you went through one of those programs. Then, you were suddently better qualified and were awarded an interview slot ahead of someone that actually met the advertised minimums. It's pretty much a moot point now since Jet U is out of business and Pinnacle won't be hiring for about the next decade. However, I stand by my opinion that it's a slap in the face to those that worked hard to meet those minimums only to be jumped in line by someone with a co-signer.
ATN, to me, it's a lot like the age 65 thing. People play by the rules, then someone changes the rules.
ATN, to me, it's a lot like the age 65 thing. People play by the rules, then someone changes the rules.
...And I forgot to add....During the time I speak of with Mesaba above I had applied for a Crew Scheduling position. During the interview it came up that I had my pilot certificate and my eventual goal was to be up front.....The HR person asked how many hours I had when I told her (150 TT) her response was, that's too bad. If you had 50 more we would interview you for a pilot slot.... :O I about shat my pants.....
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Yes, but the difference between this and something like PFT is that the company isn't receiving any money. They aren't "selling" a slot. The reason the company did it, was because all of their data clearly showed that someone from JetU (or UND, etc.) had a far better chance of making it through training, and making it through training with no extra time required. To me, that's just smart business, and it's not unethical like making someone pay for a job is.
Way different. With Age 60, there was an actual written rule, in the Code of Federal Regulations. With this, there was no "rule." It was just this sliding scale of experience that changed continually based upon the rules of supply and demand. The minimums were completely different from one year to the next. It's always been that way. There was never a hard and fast rule that anyone stuck to.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I don't think it's "WAY" different. Were the minimum qualification written? Yes. Were they not calling guys because they didn't meet the qualification? Yes. To me, that's a rule. Also, it seems pretty shaky footing to disagree with the policy simply based on who's getting the money. If the company doesn't get the money, it's okay to let guys cut the line. If they do, it isn't? What if Jet U were a wholly owned subsidiary of Pinnacle Corp? They still wouldn't be "buying" a seat, but the company would still be making money off of them to get an interview. The end result is the same, the only difference is where the check gets deposited.
I've said my piece, so I'm done. I still don't think it's fair that guys can plop down a wad of cash just so they can skip to the front of the line ahead of better qualified applicants. Then again, I don't agree with Fast Pass at Disney, either....
I've said my piece, so I'm done. I still don't think it's fair that guys can plop down a wad of cash just so they can skip to the front of the line ahead of better qualified applicants. Then again, I don't agree with Fast Pass at Disney, either....
block30
Well-Known Member
My concern is this; Maybe a school can teach to pass 121 structured training, but does that equal a mature pilot, with strong basic aviating skills? A pilot who has had a chance to make decisions-both good and bad- to draw from? Further, are we empowering education institutions to wield too much power by letting their graduates "cut in line" ahead of pilots who happen to gain their seasoning a different way?
Lastly, I'd like to echo what Kellwolf said; yes I believe pilots need more seasoning than 250/ME comm for "advanced flying" type jobs(turbine/IFR/large aircraft), but that doesn't mean one must follow in my footsteps of instructing. There are many ways to gain experience. Just one example, I've seen a few diver drivers come in for IPCs, and their basic attitude instrument flying, fundamental navigation, and communication skills were strong. Given a little polishing they will make great aviators at a higher level.
Lastly, I'd like to echo what Kellwolf said; yes I believe pilots need more seasoning than 250/ME comm for "advanced flying" type jobs(turbine/IFR/large aircraft), but that doesn't mean one must follow in my footsteps of instructing. There are many ways to gain experience. Just one example, I've seen a few diver drivers come in for IPCs, and their basic attitude instrument flying, fundamental navigation, and communication skills were strong. Given a little polishing they will make great aviators at a higher level.
Oh please, ATN, people have a difference of opinion, it's not the end of the world.
In fact, it's a sign of entering... The real world.
My undeniable truths, at least in my eyes, are torn apart and debated daily and it's my darned site. As a user, to expect everyone to subscribe to your views is as crazy as it would be for everyone to subscribe to mine.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
It's awfully convenient how personal attacks that you agree with are just "differences of opinion," but personal attacks that you disagree with are "violations of the TOS."
Debating the merits or lack thereof of programs like JetU is a difference of opinion. Attacking someone as being a job stealer or something of the like is not a difference of opinion, it's a personal attack.
HVYMETALDRVR
Well-Known Member
I think our President, Senators, and Congressmen need a lesson in this right now.
But yeah, agree to disagree.
It's awfully convenient how personal attacks that you agree with are just "differences of opinion," but personal attacks that you disagree with are "violations of the TOS."
Debating the merits or lack thereof of programs like JetU is a difference of opinion. Attacking someone as being a job stealer or something of the like is not a difference of opinion, it's a personal attack.
Evidence or are we just running off at the mouth, "that guy who lives solely in the Lavatory"-style?
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
There are were many paths to get to where you want to go. I went to a flight school that offered private, instrument, commercial, multi, and a RJ bridge program. If you already came in with the Comm/Inst/ME ratings, you could just do the RJ program. 9E had bridge agreements with several flight schools, and 9E *advertised* these flight schools on their own career webpage. Back then, it was www.nwairlink.com/careers and all their bridge program approved schools were there. I didn't buy a job. I went through a school that was 9E-approved, followed the 9E syllabus, and then 9E came down and interviewed every month. If you buy something, you are guaranteed it, because you paid for it. In this program, all you really paid for was some ground school, system classes, CPTs, and sim time. That's what your money buys you. The interviews are still per-chance. Maybe you will get lucky, maybe not. It was and still is a risk. As I stated, 6 out of 10 got hired, which means 40% would like to disagree with you that they bought their job. In the class before us, 5 out of 10 were hired, again 50% would disagree about buying a job. All your money buys is some RJ ground school and sim time. All the rest is a crapshoot, having to go through the same interview as everyone else.
Are you serious, sir? VX was barely even in the picture in 2007. They had just started flying at that time with a couple airplanes. Since you just "went there" I feel I have to respond AND correct you where you are wrong. Fact one, when I was hired, we were heavily sold on the get 2000 total time and 1,500 in the CRJ so we can go for the mentor program. That was drilled in from initial class, so true, I flew a lot for this. However, by the end of 2009, the mentor program was already gone and I had 2000 hrs (slightly more). I qualified for the mentor program, but it was stopped. Next, the "normal" upgrade hours were 2,500 total if you had 1,000 hrs in the Pinnacle CRJ. I hit 2,500 around March 2010 (give or take?). Which leads to fact two, by early 2010, I had all the time that was needed to upgrade. The musical chairs were already stopped. I could have given up now that I had the upgrade time, and just flew the min 75 hrs each month. But, contrary to what you imply, I continued to fly and do the same thing I had been doing. Flying as much as I can to get the max hours per year, each year. For 2010, I did almost 1000. For 2011, same thing. For 2012, even though I left, I was still doing 90 hrs per month. When I left 9E I had over 4,000 hrs in the CRJ as SIC time. Chasing upgrade time stopped the second I got 2,500 hrs. For the rest, I did it to boost the resume and get the time needed to move on.
Also, another fact you didn't know, I actually applied to VX back in late 2009, when I had no ATP and barely had about 2000 hrs. At the time they wanted an ATP, 5,000 total and 1,000 TPIC. I had none of those requirements, but did it anyway. Of course I got the no thanks email. But once I had 2,500 hrs, the upgrade chase was moot. I flew 90 hrs each month despite no upgrades, and despite having already met the upgrade time requirement in early 2010. I followed the advice given to me by other guys at regionals that had moved on, and the same thing that Clive Seal said in ground school. Get in, get your time, and get out. I was advised to fly as much as possible to get the time and get out. That's what my mindset was. Of course I wanted to upgrade, what RJ FO doesn't want to? No one wants to be a permanent RJ FO making 35k topped out. Regardless of what seat I was in, my mindset was still to get as much time as I could. It was in 2011 that I really started to do more to get out. I had my eyes set on JetBlue, VX, and Spirit as the top 3.
Incorrect. We did have it, it was required. I just wrote that the initial ATP written I took was more than 2 years old since it was taken back in 2007 for 9E. To get my ATP outside 9E in 2011, I had to re-take the ATP written because it is expired. The only way the 2007 ATP written stays valid is if you upgrade at 9E.
I'll agree it took money and it was essentially a shortcut. But I did not buy a job. The interview still had to be passed, like any other street hire (like you), and therefore, the job still has to be earned.
And how is this like the Age 65 scenario? It's totally different. Pinnacle's bridge programs were advertised for a long time on their own website. You had the option to do it, even back in 2006. You chose not to, and that's fair enough, to each his own. But the point is, that path was available for you, and you chose not to go down it. That's not really like Age 65 where different rules apply to pilots. Pinnacle advertised two different hiring tracks, a street hire with 1,000 and 200 ME or a bridge program pilot with lower total hours. All were free to choose either path.
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
Oh please, you can call it whatever you want but if:
1) You paid more money
B) You got an interview, and
IV) You weren't otherwise qualified to be interviewed
then:
F) You paid for your job.
It doesn't matter that some people didn't pass the "interview," because the entire scenario was a <expletive> shortcut to avoid actually earning the chance to get the job. But hey, whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night. It's also funny to hear Todd defending this in this thread. Soft spot for the other shortcutters even though you proclaim to be born again hard?
Come on guys, WTF? This all helps no one. The last few pages are just more of the perfect example of why for at least a decade or more we have been and continue to be our own worst enemies. This all needs to stop. No PFT, no PFJ, no PFI. Build your time, earn your interviews, earn and actually be qualified for your job. The shortcuts are why tons of us sit flying a "regional" jet across the freaking country for slave wages dreaming of mainline while the CEOs and executive vice presidents collect fatter paychecks. IT NEEDS TO STOP SOMEWHERE! Stop defending this crap. Get on the soapbox all you want, but if age 65 didn't slow the transitions to a worthwhile job, there would have been something else anyway. Maybe more codesharing or more "wonderful" TAs like Delta's last summer or more selling out scop for a miniscule payraise or something similarly ridiculous. Enough is enough.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Such utter nonsense. You guys focus on something that means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, but ignore things that really are the problems in our profession. Hell, one of the people leading the criticism here works for a non-union airline! There's a real problem dragging down our profession, not some kid paying a few thousand bucks for an RJ course. While you worry about PFT, PFJ, and RJ transition courses, the real problems affecting us are non-union competitors, state-sponsored foreign airlines, lack of job portability, regional RFP wars, and a whole host of other real problems. But those don't get much attention, because talking about them doesn't bring you the same sense of self-importance as yelling at some kid for going to JetU and bragging about how you "earned" your job.
Pilots truly are their own worst enemies, Rocketman, but not for the reason that you choose to harp on.
Pilots truly are their own worst enemies, Rocketman, but not for the reason that you choose to harp on.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Was wondering when you were going to trot out the non-union airline card. For the record, I don't oppose a union here, so I'm not even sure what your point is. Should I have said "no" just because the job wasn't union? Turn down an option to live in base and escape a sinking ship? For that fact, BOTH CC and I work at non-union carriers. If you're gonna throw the punch, at least be equal about it.
If you think guys paying for these bridge programs and other shortcuts aren't dragging down the industry, you've changed your tune. I whole heartedly believe they are dragging down pay in the industry as without them airlines would have to increase their wages in order to attract talent. Instead, they come up with these schemes like bridge programs rather than increase pay. Once upon a time, I thought you believed that as well. Seems I was mistaken....
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I corrected myself in later post. You didn't buy a job. You bought the interview. WIthout the RJ program, would you have met the minimums for the job? No. You bought the interview via the RJ course. And to be fair, I do consider those that bought any transition course under the same umbrella. I just think Jet U was worse because of the almost criminal price they charged.
I misread then, and I apologize.
Maybe later in 2006, but they weren't around when I interviewed at Pinnacle. Back then they wanted guys that had experience. I barely met the mins after doing another flying job for nearly a year. The bridge programs, contrary to what other seem to think, came about because of a lack of qualified applicants. Rather than increase pay to attract people with experience, the bridge programs came about. ATP had bridge programs with a couple of airlines that got their instructors (note pilots with flying experience rather than wet ink on their ticket and some additional classroom experience) hired at lower minimums. I did look at ATP initially. I was mostly done with my CMEL and already had my IR, however in order to get the rest of my commercial and my CSEL there, they wanted me to start completely over. No thanks. The RJ transition course wasn't even on their website.