Buffer zones for En Route hand offs

Screaming_Eagle_ATC said:
I would LOVE! ZLA that is one hell of a center from what I hear.... especially when you think about how many different chuncks of that airspace used to be their own seperate facilities. Is the facility actually in LA? I've spent some time in and around the city and love it. West hollywood however, seems like another planet sometimes. I digress.
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ZLA is awesome. They have to deal with me. :)


Sent from Seat 3D
 
Screaming_Eagle_ATC said:
We do!... how much longer do you think you have before you become fully certified?
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Stuck in ERAM training delay, so I have no idea, figure a year and a half minimum, that is assuming I go to class when I have been told, come out of class and check out in the minimum amount of time, then immediately go back to class, and come out and check out with that in the minimum time. Considering there are still people training from our last radar school, which ended last spring, I don't think that is very likely.
 
inigo88 said:
Haha he thought he was moving to Hollywood! :D

How ghetto is East Palmdale these days? I've never visited, and my only frame of reference is the Afroman song (NSFW: Naughty language).

Do most ZLA controllers live in the Palmdale area, or commute from places like Santa Clarita?
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It seems to be pretty ghetto, but no worse than the wrong side of the tracks in any other town. Most live on the west side of Lancaster or Palmdale (much better), or down in Santa Clarita.
 
greg1016 said:
Screaming_Eagle_ATC

A hand-off does not imply control. Even once an aircraft is handed off and communications switched, the aircraft is not your control for headings or altitude changes (edit: or anything else for that matter) until it is 3 miles inside the boundary of your airspace, unless you call up the adjacent sector and specifically request control.

Where are you headed?
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It depends on local agreements, we have automatic control on handoff with all inter units and one exterior unit.
 
greg1016 said:
I have to do the research (which I am currently looking for), but I believe the logic of splitting the sectors at F230/F240 has to do with the transition between Mach Number and Indicated Airspeed. Perhaps an airline pilot could answer where that transition occurs, because I am not sure.

Edit: A quick google search reveals that the transition occurs differently by type, but that a typical altitude for transition from IAS to Mach would be F245 and a transition back to indicated would occur at F235
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The majority of planes climb on a speed schedule, so 300/.80 would mean that we maintain 300KIAS until that speed corresponds to M.80. We maintain .80 until cruise altitude. The opposite is true for the descent. .80/300 on the way down.

The exact altitude at which the changeover happens doesn't depend on the type as much as the conditions. Everybody on a 300/.80 schedule will changeover at the same altitude under the same atmospheric conditions. In general, the smaller planes will have slower speed schedules than larger planes.
 
canadian_atc said:
It depends on local agreements, we have automatic control on handoff with all inter units and one exterior unit.
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I believe we have control for higher on contact with our only intrafacility radar sector, but still need to apreq turns. Temporary control for turns and oceanics is pretty common with Boston for aircraft yahoo..dovey on a busy track night, but for us there is nothing in the LOA. On really busy nights we sometimes have to issue turns for spacing. Wouldn't have enough time if we had to wait till they were within the boundary of our sector. But even if it is in the sop/loa, I would still call that special permission.
 
Chief Captain said:
The majority of planes climb on a speed schedule, so 300/.80 would mean that we maintain 300KIAS until that speed corresponds to M.80. We maintain .80 until cruise altitude. The opposite is true for the descent. .80/300 on the way down.

The exact altitude at which the changeover happens doesn't depend on the type as much as the conditions. Everybody on a 300/.80 schedule will changeover at the same altitude under the same atmospheric conditions. In general, the smaller planes will have slower speed schedules than larger planes.
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Just out of curiosity, what type is that? Typical cruise seems to be m.78 to m.82, with a few slower and a few faster. Seems to correspond more by carrier than type.
 
greg1016 said:
The section you referenced has to do with altitude filters on our radar scope. As far as stratification of sectors is concerned, in my facility a low altitude sector is the floor of Class E to F230, or in some cases that altitude above what is delegated to the approach control (usually sfc to 10,000), high altitude is F240-F600, or in the instances of ultra-high sectors, which would own F320 and above I believe. Obviously, an approach controller does not need to see traffic at F280, so those targets are filtered from their scope. That is what 5-14-5 is concerned with. Standard altitude filters for a sector are determined by SOP.

I have to do the research (which I am currently looking for), but I believe the logic of splitting the sectors at F230/F240 has to do with the transition between Mach Number and Indicated Airspeed. Perhaps an airline pilot could answer where that transition occurs, because I am not sure.

Edit: A quick google search reveals that the transition occurs differently by type, but that a typical altitude for transition from IAS to Mach would be F245 and a transition back to indicated would occur at F235

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, because now I am curious.
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The Citation X transitions from IAS to Mach at 30500
 
Most airplanes tends to transition from IAS to Mach around FL280 usually. The aircraft that I fly we fly 290/.74 until cruise then the company wants us at .77. Most of us fly closer to .79. Then again we don't have auto-throttles either.

I sat in with ZME one day when I flew freight down there years ago, and most said they split at FL230 because most of the slower traffic stays below that. I flew for many years down that low and I'm happy to leave that behind and see what the high altitudes look like.
 
greg1016 said:
Just out of curiosity, what type is that? Typical cruise seems to be m.78 to m.82, with a few slower and a few faster. Seems to correspond more by carrier than type.
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I didn't really have a particular type in mind, but that 300/.80 profile could be something around the size of a 757/767 or A310/A300. In general, smaller would be slower, and bigger would be faster, but not by much. In an A320, you may see something like 280/.78, while a 777 may be 330/.82

Indeed the speeds would depend more on the carrier than by the type. The carrier will have the pilot enter a cost index in the FMC. This is the big factor that determines the speeds. So if DAL and AAL operate the same planes, and DAL tends to use a higher cost index, DAL planes will tend to fly faster than AAL planes.
 
All of the US centers abide by the 7110.65, but have varying SOP's. Some utilize the Interim altitude feature, some do not. Some centers controller A climbs to the top of his altitudes owned and switches to controller B, controller B issues higher when they check on. Others controller A climbs to the top of his altitudes and flashes the data block at controller B, controller B inputs higher, controller A issues higher, controller A switches to controller B. And all you really need to know is ZNY sucks.
 
Chief Captain said:
I didn't really have a particular type in mind, but that 300/.80 profile could be something around the size of a 757/767 or A310/A300. In general, smaller would be slower, and bigger would be faster, but not by much. In an A320, you may see something like 280/.78, while a 777 may be 330/.82

Indeed the speeds would depend more on the carrier than by the type. The carrier will have the pilot enter a cost index in the FMC. This is the big factor that determines the speeds. So if DAL and AAL operate the same planes, and DAL tends to use a higher cost index, DAL planes will tend to fly faster than AAL planes.
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There's been a big switch in years past to slower speeds for fuel savings.

767s operating at .78/.79 as an example
 
greg1016 said:
only regional jets I see are the occasional JBU E190 and they have decent performance. :biggrin:
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That would be because it's not a regional jet. :)

The ERJ climbs out at 250 to 10,000, then 290 to Mach .65. I personally would rather take a vector than a speed adjustment in the climb, so if you have a choice, give me a steer instead of slowing me down.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
That would be because it's not a regional jet. :)

The ERJ climbs out at 250 to 10,000, then 290 to Mach .65. I personally would rather take a vector than a speed adjustment in the climb, so if you have a choice, give me a steer instead of slowing me down.
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I uh. Hrm. Odd, I recently had an ERJ pilot tell me that exact thing prefaced with a "before we go, just so you know..." as I switched them to Center. Not the part about the personal preference, but the numbers. I had previously capped them to get the aircraft behind them on top.

Friend of yours perhaps?

:)
 
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