How many regional pilots can REALLY meet this requirement?

So this is God's gift to aviation?

I have around 1300 hrs in a 210, am I worthy? Or am I just another lowly RJ FO?
 
I would agree glass creates complacency. I also think most professional pilots could also get back in a 210 and be fine. Frasca 142 and a competent CFII can reform a glass scan into a guage scan fairly easily.
 
A-300F4-622R said:
All applicants MUST be PROFICIENTnot just legally current on single-pilot cross-country IFR-PIC operations - using VOR and NDB navigation - in a complex, high-performance, single-engine airplane with no autopilot, no GPS and no airborne weather radar. Pilots who are not comfortable with this kind of flying are strongly discouraged from applying.
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Right now today? I'd probably need a little time to play around with whatever avionics they have but I don't see wha the issue is. Are there regional pilots who balk at NDB's? Yes, but I'm not one of them. We used to shoot NDB approaches until we were light enough to land with a tailwind on the ILS because we had the vis for either but didn't have the ceilings to get in on the NDBs (but we try it anyway just in case the ceilings come up a little. Quite frankly, anyone flying up in New England area (either CFI, 135 or 121 and I did all, though the 135 experience was little in comparison to the other two) is rock solid on any of it. NDB's are still a way of life up in Canada, at least the last time I went through.

Here's an question with an obvious answer for you 300- Could a 767 pilot go do that type of flying right now? Today? No. It has nothing to do with RJ's, it is automation. You don't get a medal for being a no autopilot, fast flying, approach shooting machine... unless I missed the nomination letter.

What if the ad was written, "Looking for a pilot who wants to be home often who doesn't mind shooting tons of NDB approaches and loading their own cargo working 14:50 to 15:30 duty times regularly. On the bright side you'll have all the frequencies and approaches memorized after the first month because you'll fly 98 or 118 hrs a month at the same ten to fifteen airports. You'll get done and your stick and rudder will be great, but don't fool yourself, you will probably fall asleep a few legs on accident, but the overwing tank has a real loud alarm when you start running low on one side. ATC doesn't even mind, and like we said, you'll have the freq memorized so no big deal. Furthermore, high level automation with a wide array of integrated systems with reams of checklists isn't our fortay here, you're going to memorize a ton of crap and your stick and rudder will be outstanding. Come in, get some experience, and if you like it stay; you won't you'll be out the door as soon as you can find something better paying. If I can get a little job like that when my company folds I'll be grateful for it. I didn't get to do a ton of cargo.

Don't worry homie, I shudder when some fellow FO makes a crappy comment about the NDB's too. I'm embarrassed for them. For every one of those clowns there are 9 other guys who look back at the days of NDB's and off site VOR's into mins with the snow blowing as fond memories.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Right now today? I'd probably need a little time to play around with whatever avionics they have but I don't see wha the issue is. Are there regional pilots who balk at NDB's? Yes, but I'm not one of them. We used to shoot NDB approaches until we were light enough to land with a tailwind on the ILS because we had the vis for either but didn't have the ceilings to get in on the NDBs (but we try it anyway just in case the ceilings come up a little. Quite frankly, anyone flying up in New England area (either CFI, 135 or 121 and I did all, though the 135 experience was little in comparison to the other two) is rock solid on any of it. NDB's are still a way of life up in Canada, at least the last time I went through.

Here's an question with an obvious answer for you 300- Could a 767 pilot go do that type of flying right now? Today? No. It has nothing to do with RJ's, it is automation. You don't get a medal for being a no autopilot, fast flying, approach shooting machine... unless I missed the nomination letter.

What if the ad was written, "Looking for a pilot who wants to be home often who doesn't mind shooting tons of NDB approaches and loading their own cargo working 14:50 to 15:30 duty times regularly. On the bright side you'll have all the frequencies and approaches memorized after the first month because you'll fly 98 or 118 hrs a month at the same ten to fifteen airports. You'll get done and your stick and rudder will be great, but don't fool yourself, you will probably fall asleep a few legs on accident, but the overwing tank has a real loud alarm when you start running low on one side. ATC doesn't even mind, and like we said, you'll have the freq memorized so no big deal. Furthermore, high level automation with a wide array of integrated systems with reams of checklists isn't our fortay here, you're going to memorize a ton of crap and your stick and rudder will be outstanding. Come in, get some experience, and if you like it stay; you won't you'll be out the door as soon as you can find something better paying. If I can get a little job like that when my company folds I'll be grateful for it. I didn't get to do a ton of cargo.

Don't worry homie, I shudder when some fellow FO makes a crappy comment about the NDB's too. I'm embarrassed for them. For every one of those clowns there are 9 other guys who look back at the days of NDB's and off site VOR's into mins with the snow blowing as fond memories.
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This is such an awesome comment, I don't know what to say.

To the OP A-300F4-622R

I fly a Navajo in Alaska presently and have flown freight and bush work for my whole career - from 172s and 207s to Beech 1900s single pilot with no autopilot, I feel like I'm qualified to talk about how this comparison is somewhat irrelevant and underscores the cultural problem in freight and bush work. I presently have decent automation (an Autopilot EGADS GASP!) and great avionics (At least 2 Garmin 400 series and a handheld in our Navajos). I prefer it. It means I'm more likely to not impact a mountain at a moderately high rate of speed. I'll even fly the dreaded "coupled" ILS instead of hand flying it occasionally if the weather is really crummy - I know right? Turn in my man card! Yes, you should click off the automation and handfly as much as you can when it's prudent, with two pilots, honestly, you could probably do it as much as you want, but let's be honest, do I really need thousands more hours of straight and level practice? I think the last 4000+ hrs without autopilot are enough, I'll click it off in cruise if it's a really sunny day. If I'm flying a week in crummy weather, I'll take and handfly a bunch of approaches to stay current. But seriously and on topic, contrary to popular opinion, very few types of flying are "hard." This stuff is pretty dammed easy, I'm sure the RJ dude (with some exceptions, hell I've seen some absolutely terrifying pilots in Bush and Freight work) would do just fine with a dozen hrs of ground and a few flights in the airplane. It's a 210 for god's sake - not the space shuttle (though the piston 200 series cessnas glide about as well)!

Also, an attitude check would probably be nice if the guy hasn't come from bush or freight work (the same has had to happen to me coming to a really conservative company but in reverse I'm embarrassed to say). It's about moving boxes - your job is to figure out how to move them. Getting them out of where you're at and closer to the destination is all that matters, sometimes, safety comes second (for example, is it OK to fly a single engine airplane over an area of super dense foggy land where you'd almost certainly be killed if you lost an engine?). It's not right or even technically correct, but often that's the way it is at a lot of 135 outfits. There's deferred then there's "what you need" and the company sometimes conflates the two ideas. You won't be able to rely on dispatch - some companies don't really have dispatch, at others its remarkably disfunctional. You are completely and utterly on your own in 135. No one will check your NOTAMs, and single pilot no one will double check your work. If you can't depart, you're going to need a damn good reason why - because someone will bitch about the freight not being moved. As long as the RJ guy (or anyone who was previously with a company that takes an active part in operational control, be it corporate, charter, or otherwise) keeps these sorts of things in mind, they'll stay safe, stay on the good side of the company, and probably not get violated. Knowing the FOM/GOM/company procedures may not be enough to keep you safe and out of trouble either, there are GOMs out there that say stuff that's patently unsafe or simply illegal, but the company is too small for anyone to want to say anything, or the management just doesn't care. Know the regs, know the airplane, and fly the airplane the safest way you think you can (not what someone else says is "safe" - I've heard plenty of guys say things like, "well, I dunno, I didn't think I needed it, so I blasted off without X and sure as (crap) I needed it." or "well, you could go down as low as XXX on the approach and miss the hill.")

Remember, a lot of guys who do this type of flying (including old experienced codger types) do this stuff because they've got something to prove. I won't lie, that's why I didn't go to the 121 world, I didn't even try, I had to prove to myself that I could do this other type of "badass," or "tough guy" flying that the "real pilots" do. Scarily enough, almost every one of the people I know who did/does similar flying talks about how they get great satisfaction out of how difficult or challenging, and it's not uncommon to hear this in relation to how "not everyone can do this type of flying." Truth be told, it's pretty dammed easy unless you push the conditions and the limits of your equipment. Maybe I'm getting older, maybe it has to do with having the baby less than two weeks away, bottom line is (at least for me) I like things to go smoothly anymore. There's too much other BS associated with this career for me to want any additional complications in the airplane. While I still love to fly, and still love the challenge of it, I find it's more satisfying and challenging to try to do things right. That doesn't mean I still don't have my occasional lapses in judgment, or that I won't make mistakes - rather, it means that my feelings about what makes a good pilot are changing. I still look back at the days I did of renegade flying in singles, dodging pointy rocks and flying dangerously low over empty fjords and glaciers with glassy-eyed nostalgia. I still miss the fun I had and often long for the freedom to do whatever I want in the airplane because there simply were no established rules or procedures beyond the most basic regs. That visceral emotional feeling of fear and excitement when you pull your stupid ass out of a sling is an addictive cocktail of adrenaline and ego - and when you swap stories with your buddies at the bar later, the understanding nods and smiles are worth more than any paycheck. These friendships formed in fear last for lifetimes, and I'm glad to have the experiences associated with that portion of my life, but the circumstances that brought me to those points in space and time where I "saved the day" or "just barely made it in" were truly the result of a fundamental failure in my understanding of how things ought to be.

Realistically speaking, for most of my flying career, I was wrong about what makes the "best" pilots. Yeager-esque technical skill combined with the ability to fly the airplane through the worst and most challenging condition doesn't make you a better pilot. While you might be able to fly a flawless NDB circle to land approach at mins in a snow storm in an airplane with half the equipment MEL'd, that doesn't mean you're a good pilot. The best pilots miss those conditions all together, or take the time to delay. That doesn't make them (womens' areas), that means that they understand their limitations and don't feel the need to push them. The best pilots mitigate the risks associated with the flying they do. They manage the conditions so that when things get out of hand, the aggregate total of things stacked against them doesn't exceed the list of things stashed away in their bag of tricks. Sure stick and rudder and instrument skills are a must, but the real good pilots out there understand that a balanced approach is a more favorable approach. You have systems and procedures in place designed to limit the chances that you catastrophically screw up and get yourself killed - how could those be a bad thing? If automation is a crutch, you've missed the point of automation. The "best" pilots out there are routinely hand-flying to stay sharp when it's appropriate, but when the weather comes down and the ride is rough, and things are getting out of hand, these guys set their ego aside and hand the yoke over to George.

The freight dawg / bushrat is still alive and well in me (but I'm trying my damndest to better myself, learn from the best, maintain flight discipline, etc), I caught myself just the other day on an approach handflying when the conditions were reported less than optimal, and I thought, "wait a second, what's going to happen if I lose an engine right now (remember it's not always something that happens fast), how long will it take me to recognize what's going on while I'm intent on keeping these two needles lined up?" By then I broke out before I anticipated and it was a moot point but old habits die hard and sometimes out of complacency, or a whole host of other human factors, we can make mistakes that could have serious consequences. "What is the safest course of actions?" should be what you're thinking about, and balancing that with maintaining adequate proficiency is how you should be trying to operate. I guess what I'm trying to say (if you've even stuck with me through this rambling manifesto), is that who cares if these guys couldn't just drop everything they're doing and walk into the Flight Express office and flawlessly pass a checkride? The skill set associated with these sorts of flying are vastly different and the way the RJ guys have been flying is probably safer (statistically speaking it most certainly is, on an individual basis it will obviously vary from person to person). Why is it a bad thing that these guys might struggle at high-workload single-pilot single-engine operations when they've been flying highly-automated, crewed missions, where workload is actively managed to minimize errors? To suggest that it's somehow wrong to not be able to hand fly an NDB circling approach to minimums at night misses the point of "why would you want to?" The only reasons I can see why you would want to if you had the automation to avoid hand flying one to mins at night would be for proficiency, for training, or because "it would be cool." Proficiency can maintained by flying the approach when the mins are higher (or hell, even when it's nice out) and you have some decent vis, training will likely be done in the sim, so the only reason why you would voluntarily elevate your level of risk in such a way if you didn't have to in a "big automated airplane" is because you have something to prove. Me, I don't have anything to prove anymore, so for me anyway, I'll just click on the automation where its appropriate, and enjoy the ability to monitor the flight more effectively.

-Pat
 
A-300F4-622R said:
Here is one of the hiring requirements taken from Flight Express, a 135 freight operator flying 210s and some Barons. They claim that their pilots are successful in moving to the regional airlines to fly RJs, but how many RJ pilots could do a role reversal and successfully do their type of flying?

All applicants MUST be PROFICIENTnot just legally current on single-pilot cross-country IFR-PIC operations - using VOR and NDB navigation - in a complex, high-performance, single-engine airplane with no autopilot, no GPS and no airborne weather radar. Pilots who are not comfortable with this kind of flying are strongly discouraged from applying.
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Why are you asking this question? Was there a recent incident/accident, hiring/firing, etc...?
 
It's unfortunate that MOST of the time the FedEx and UPS pilots on here sling mud rather than extend a hand. Not all but most of them just throw darts and then run away. The FedEx and UPS pilots I know personally don't feel the need to do this. They act more like mentors and tend to pay it forward rather than laugh at those "beneath" them.
 
mikecweb said:
It's unfortunate that MOST of the time the FedEx and UPS pilots on here sling mud rather than extend a hand. Not all but most of them just throw darts and then run away. The FedEx and UPS pilots I know personally don't feel the need to do this. They act more like mentors and tend to pay it forward rather than laugh at those "beneath" them.
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I hand fly up to 10,000 regularly and then engage the autopilot, disengage on approach, or throw it on (depending on the type) during an emergency. My airplane has some glass in it.

I've never flown a C210.

Guess I'll never end up at FedEx or UPS.....
 
mikecweb said:
It's unfortunate that MOST of the time the FedEx and UPS pilots on here sling mud rather than extend a hand. Not all but most of them just throw darts and then run away. The FedEx and UPS pilots I know personally don't feel the need to do this. They act more like mentors and tend to pay it forward rather than laugh at those "beneath" them.
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Nah, this guy is a well-known troll.
 
Hacker15e said:
Indeed, but not as funny as the instance in this thread.
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Funny how a simple question asking could current regional pilots meet a hiring requirement of a 135 operator by being proficient AND comfortable flying night freight in all weather in aircraft with the minimum of equipment, turn into a measuring contest trying to justify their route to where they are in aviation.

So instead of the intended path of the question which was should RJ pilots have a background of flying IFR in minimally equipped aircraft in case of automation failure, it turns into a member measuring contest.
 
DPApilot said:
I hand fly up to 10,000 regularly and then engage the autopilot, disengage on approach, or throw it on (depending on the type) during an emergency. My airplane has some glass in it.

I've never flown a C210.

Guess I'll never end up at FedEx or UPS.....
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Yea but as a gear puller you sometimes can't even get that right. 8)

If the OP was going for the idea that you can't go back in automation then I'm gonna have a problem transition from the Cirrus, I have been told its automation is better then some RJs.
 
A-300F4-622R said:
Here is one of the hiring requirements taken from Flight Express, a 135 freight operator flying 210s and some Barons. They claim that their pilots are successful in moving to the regional airlines to fly RJs, but how many RJ pilots could do a role reversal and successfully do their type of flying?

All applicants MUST be PROFICIENTnot just legally current on single-pilot cross-country IFR-PIC operations - using VOR and NDB navigation - in a complex, high-performance, single-engine airplane with no autopilot, no GPS and no airborne weather radar. Pilots who are not comfortable with this kind of flying are strongly discouraged from applying.
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I don't think the answer to your question really matters because that scenario is extremely unlikely to occur. You may have 1 or 2 friends you know who did it, but of the tens of thousands of RJ pilots in the US, how many would need to transition to that type of flying?
 
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