FA Calls on short final..

[jtrain609]

Emergency Chime or not, there is nothing in the abort criteria that even suggests that something that isn't red, blinking, triple chiming, and announcing the failure is consideration for an ATO.

I would not, as CA, abort for an inter phone emergency call, nor as FO would I announce it so the CA can make the decision on it or not. I think the CA would wonder why I looked away from the outside / speed / eicas to see what the FA wanted.

Nearly, if not every captain I fly with briefs this to the FO and FA as an abort item.

 

[Bumblebee]

if FA inspected the 3 red then no abort for doors...I think they always confirmed that. Can't remember though so I defer to the current Bro driver.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

if FA inspected the 3 red then no abort for doors...I think they always confirmed that. Can't remember though so I defer to the current Bro driver.

That's correct (and the FO can watch them check all three red stripes if he or she is paying attention when the MCD is closed).

The more that I think about it, might as well just keep going. This is why I'm not in charge yet: I haven't gamed out all the eventualities.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Nearly, if not every captain I fly with briefs this to the FO and FA as an abort item.

Well as we know airline FOMs vary. Ours says nothing about aborting for an emergency chime. Just for stuff that pops up on the glareshield and even then the faster you go, the narrower in scope we get for aborts. I can think of one abortable caution, L/R TR Unsafe/etc.

 

[jtrain609]

Well as we know airline FOMs vary. Ours says nothing about aborting for an emergency chime. Just for stuff that pops up on the glareshield and even then the faster you go, the narrower in scope we get for aborts. I can think of one abortable caution, L/R TR Unsafe/etc.

We've actually got very little guidance outside of the failure/fire/loss of directional control issues. There are a few quirky, ERJ specific issues, but otherwise there are things that simply aren't covered.

So then it comes down to you abort what you brief. Is the FA calling on takeoff an institutional issue? Yeah, it might be; but the reasoning is, in my mind, sound. If folks don't agree, then they don't need to use it as an abort item when they're in the left seat.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I'd stop, if I'm not crossing a runway or in another situation where stopping would put us and/or others in a worse situation. If I am taking off and the FA calls, I don't answer but even if I became aware of someone up during the take off roll, I wouldn't stop then either.

I was on a Delta flight out of MCI a few years back when a drunk on his way to his honeymoon (with the bride in tow) decided he was going to walk in the aisle during takeoff. They aborted (low speed), went back and hauled him off.

 

[Bumblebee]

well let's talk about speeds....engine spool up, emergency chime, no brainer... up to 40 kts I can get it stopped easily, after that it's gray area, but I'm not inclined to stop.

 

[dvtpilot]

When I was going through initial our instructor gave us an emergency FA call chime at V1-10 and we kept going. Needless to say we got an ass chewing for that one.

Reasoning was that by the time we knew what had happened we are already above V1.

 

[SrFnFly227]

Reasoning was that by the time we knew what had happened we are already above V1.

This is exactly why a previous company of mine had us call V1 at 5 knots before. By the time you say it and the other person registers it, you are already above the speed.


As to the original question in this thread, I would go around. I agree with JTrain that legally you are now aware of the issue and I don't think the FAA would be all that forgiving if the passenger got injured. To those of you saying that you would land because you are fully configured and committed to the landing, I pose this question. At 1000ft, the tower tells you to go around, do you land because you're committed or comply with the tower? I am hoping that every person here would vote go around. I ask because I don't see a difference in the safety of a go around. If you think you can perform one safely when told by the tower to do it, then you can do it safely anytime. If you don't think you can perform it safely, then please go get yourself some more training.

Of course all of that was said in response to a flawed question. At 1000ft, I wouldn't answer the call and am therefore never aware of a problem. After clearing the runway, I would switch over and find out what was going on. Oh a passenger is in the lav? Too bad I did that carrier landing and slammed on the brakes with 10,000ft of runway left in front of me (sorry, pet peeve of mine).

 

[Kingairer]

When I was going through initial our instructor gave us an emergency FA call chime at V1-10 and we kept going. Needless to say we got an ass chewing for that one.

Reasoning was that by the time we knew what had happened we are already above V1.

I wouldve kept going too..no way Im sliding into flushing bay because a flight attendant hit the wrong button. What can I FA see from their jumpseat anyways? If its smoke, were probably going to smell it too. I think this is an example of living in "training world" and reality.

 

[jtrain609]

Do you guys really think the plane won't stop? If so, why call v1 if you won't reject above 80 knots?

 

[slemers]

When I was going through initial our instructor gave us an emergency FA call chime at V1-10 and we kept going. Needless to say we got an ass chewing for that one.

Reasoning was that by the time we knew what had happened we are already above V1.

You made the right call, the instructors aren't perfect although they may believe they are doing the right thing.

 

[Bumblebee]

This is exactly why a previous company of mine had us call V1 at 5 knots before. .

I don't agree with that. V1 is the speed, when at or before V1 should you have an abort event, for the crew to react and abort (which will take you past V1 during the abort process).

 

[SteveC]

I don't agree with that. V1 is the speed, when at or before V1 should you have an abort event, for the crew to react and abort (which will take you past V1 during the abort process).

Yep, the reaction delay is built into the calculation of V1 to begin with.

 

[Bumblebee]

restated with such eloquence...

 

[SrFnFly227]

I don't agree with that. V1 is the speed, when at or before V1 should you have an abort event, for the crew to react and abort (which will take you past V1 during the abort process).

Yep, the reaction delay is built into the calculation of V1 to begin with.

This is getting completely off the original subject of this thread, but I'm not sure that is true. Straight from the FAA, "V 1 means the maximum speed in the takeoff at which the pilot must take the first action (e.g., apply brakes, reduce thrust, deploy speed brakes) to stop the airplane within the accelerate-stop distance. V1 also means the minimum speed in the takeoff, following a failure of the critical engine at VEF , at which the pilot can continue the takeoff and achieve the required height above the takeoff surface within the takeoff distance."

That definition does not indicate to me that reaction time is included.

 

[Bumblebee]

getting off the original subject of the thread is what we do best! Plus it's more like the course of a conversation

at V1 if you pull the power levers back you will still accelerate past V1..not likely you'd be on the brakes quite yet...

 

[SteveC]

This is getting completely off the original subject of this thread, but I'm not sure that is true. Straight from the FAA, "V 1 means the maximum speed in the takeoff at which the pilot must take the first action (e.g., apply brakes, reduce thrust, deploy speed brakes) to stop the airplane within the accelerate-stop distance. V1 also means the minimum speed in the takeoff, following a failure of the critical engine at VEF , at which the pilot can continue the takeoff and achieve the required height above the takeoff surface within the takeoff distance."

That definition does not indicate to me that reaction time is included.

Did a little more research, and I agree with you. I was taught incorrectly.

This is from AC 25-7B (Fight Test Guide For Certification of Transport Catagory Aircraft):

(3) Accelerate-Stop Time Delays. Section 25.101(h) requires allowance for time delays
in the execution of procedures. Amendment 25-42 (effective March 1, 1978) amended the
airworthiness standards to clarify and standardize the method of applying these time delays to
the accelerate-stop transition period. Amendment 25-42 also added the critical engine failure
speed, VEF, and clarified the meaning of V1 with relation to VEF. The preamble to amendment
25-42 states that “V1 is determined by adding to VEF (the speed at which the critical engine is
assumed to fail) the speed gained with the critical engine inoperative during the time interval
between the instant at which the critical engine is failed and the instant at which the test pilot
recognizes and reacts to the engine failure, as indicated by the pilot’s application of the first
retarding means during accelerate-stop tests.” Thus it can be seen that V1 is not only intended to
be at the end of the decision process, but it also includes the time it takes for the pilot to perform
the first action to stop the airplane. (See Appendix 5 of this AC for further discussion on the
historical development of accelerate-stop time delays.) The purpose of the time delays is to
allow sufficient time (and distance) for a pilot, in actual operations, to accomplish the procedures
for stopping the airplane. The time delays are not intended to allow extra time for making a
decision to stop as the airplane passes through V1. Since the typical transport category airplane
requires three pilot actions (i.e., brakes-throttles-spoilers) to achieve the final braking
configuration, amendment 25-42 defined a two-second time period, in § 25.109, to account for
delays in activating the second and third deceleration devices. Amendment 25-92 (effective
March 20, 1998) redefined, and reinterpreted the application of that two-second delay time as a
distance increment equivalent to two seconds at V1. No credit may be taken for system transient
effects (e.g., engine spin-down, brake pressure ramp-up, etc.) in determining this distance. The
following paragraphs provide guidance related to the interpretation and application of delay
times to show compliance with the accelerate-stop requirements of amendment 25-92.

I think that the confusion regarding this may come from a subsequent requirement in calculating distances that an additional 2 seconds of distance (at V1 speed) be added to the data when doing the final calculations:

(h) Sections 25.109(a)(1)(iv) and (a)(2)(iii) require the one-engine-inoperative and
all-engines-operating accelerate-stop distances, respectively, to include a distance increment
equivalent to two seconds at V1. (Although the requirement for the distance increment
equivalent to two seconds at V1 is explicitly stated in the “dry runway” criteria of § 25.109, it is
also applied to the “wet runway” accelerate-stop distances by reference in § 25.109(b).) This
distance increment is represented pictorially on the right side of the “Flight Manual Expansion
Time Delays” presentation in figure 11-1, and in the speed versus distance plot of figure 11-2, on
the following page. The two-second time period is only provided as a method to calculate the
required distance increment, and is not considered to be a part of the accelerate-stop braking
transition sequence. Consequently, no credit for pilot actions, or engine and systems transient
responses (e.g., engine spin-down) may be taken during this two-second time period. Similarly,
the two-second time period may not be reduced for airplanes incorporating automated systems
that decrease the number of pilot actions required to obtain the full braking configuration (e.g.,
automatic spoiler systems).

Here's a picture:

It also shows that the speed does continue to increase above V1 while the initial actions are taking place.




.

 

[SteveC]

You know, the more I think about it the more I disagree with calling V1 5 knots early. While it might be advantageous for an aborted take-off situation, I'm not sure I'd want to be the guy test flying an airplane where we decide to continue the take-off when an engine fails PRIOR to Vef (see definition above).

 

[dasleben]

When I was going through initial our instructor gave us an emergency FA call chime at V1-10 and we kept going. Needless to say we got an ass chewing for that one.

Reasoning was that by the time we knew what had happened we are already above V1.

Just for funsies, I actually ran this scenario by an experienced 767 check airman. He looked at me like I had three heads and told me he wouldn't even think about stopping. I would have to agree.