The Oral Examination: Real or Made for Film?

RVSM

Member
Hello all CFIs, CFIIs and MEIs:

Is this real? Or, is this a made for "video" production?


I'd just like to know whether or not this represents the physical nature of the Oral Examine. Do you sit this close to your Examiner? Is it really this physical - I mean, do you really sit down and engage each other like this at such a close physical range? That "could" be intimidating for some.

I know there is a Written, Oral and Flight. I know you do the Written, first. But, does the Oral come before or after the Flight?

Does the Oral really last an hour and a half? I remember college examines that took 3-4 hours (technical majors) and some job interviews in corporate that lasted 2-3 hours, so that part does not seem too intimidating.

I guess what I'm trying to get at here, is whether or not these Oral exams are all administered by the Examiner in the same "exact" way?

- The setting: Does this always happen at the Examiners office, or could it take place in a Restaurant?

- The degree of impromptu interrupts given by the Examiner: Do all Examiners interrupt answers given by the student in the same way?

- Examiner role: Are the Examiners there to try and trip you up? Do they toss trick questions at you consistently? Do they ever ask you questions that do not exist in the PTS and then use your answer in their determination about your Passing, or Failing the exam?

You pretty much know flat out before hand when you have your college degree all wrapped-up nice a neat. You also have a really good idea when walking out of a job interview, how well you did and whether or not you nailed that interview. However, I don't see how, given all the flexibility given to the Examiner, how you can know how well you are doing during the exam itself. I can see that as feeling a little freaky, while the exam is talking place.

I like knowing whether or not I'm nailing the thing to the wall - during the process. This seems difficult to know exactly and in that regard, it seems like FUN! Thanks for the help!
 
I've had exams range from 45 minutes for my ppl to eight hours for my cfi. I once rode around with a dpe in his car while he ran errands as my oral. He even bought me burger king.

Sent via smoke signal.
 
It's fairly typical as far as the environment and interaction, but every examiner is somewhat unique in their approach.

I had a PPSEL student who just went through a 4 hour oral and at the conclusion the DPE said he did really good and was one of the best prepared students he's seen.

I think my PPSEL oral was about 1 hour. My commercial oral was about 2 hours. Instrument oral was around 1.5 hours. CFI oral was around 4 hours.
 
my CFI oral was 6 hrs...and I still failed it...came back the next day and finished it, took only 20 min that day to finish the rest of my oral...
 
Examiners are people. They each have their own style and idiosyncrasies. You might be in an office, you might be in a room that more resembles a conference room, or theoretically, it could be a restaurant. You could be sitting as close as in this video or you could be sitting in two chairs facing each other. Tons of variation possible.

A private pilot or instrument oral will typically be 45 minutes to an hour.

As far as interruptions, see above. Each examiner is different. Key here, however, is don't dig your own grave. On one of my checkrides, (CFI actually) I was asked, "Do you know what a spin is?" I answered, "yes." The examiner went on to the next question, which had NOTHING to do with spins. Answer the question that is asked. No more; no less.

Examiners may ask a question in a way that you are no used to hearing it. They will rarely intentionally try to give you a "trick" question. There are a few out there that will, but not many. When you don't understand a question or give an answer that may be correct, but not what they're looking for, they will try to reword the question to make sure you understand the point they're going for.

The PTS is there as a guide. Examiners are supposed to follow it, but if you look in the front cover, there are about 2 dozen books (I don't remember the exact number) from which knowledge for that certificate is pulled. The examiner could ask a question you've never heard of before, and it still be a legitimate question. Doesn't happen often at PP or instrument level, but it could.

With all of this said, for PP and instrument, when your instructor signs you off to take the checkride, it's pretty much yours to lose. I've talked with several examiners that have told me that when they see the instructor's signature, they assume you're good, and all you have to do is not disprove that belief. If you know the PTS, and you know the knowledge required by the PTS, and you can do the maneuvers as well as the PTS lays out, you'll pass.
 
Thanks for the replies guys - it helps.

It appears that there is no fixed time frame for the Oral, nor a fixed location. You guys have reported anywhere from as little as 45 minutes to as much as 4 hours long! That's a huge variance in time spent doing an Oral examination. One of you even mentioned that you started the Oral one day, then cam back to finish the Oral the next day. I never knew you could do that. There seems to be a very wide distribution of Oral examine experiences, where the final outcome is either pass or fail.


Hey, msmspilot.

Thanks for the detailed reply - it helps.

As far as interruptions, see above. Each examiner is different. Key here, however, is don't dig your own grave. On one of my checkrides, (CFI actually) I was asked, "Do you know what a spin is?" I answered, "yes." The examiner went on to the next question, which had NOTHING to do with spins. Answer the question that is asked. No more; no less.

When I read that, my mind immediately recalled a video where a normal spin entry turned into a flat spin that barely got recovered in time. Check out this video on "spins." It was a real situation that turned out far better than it could have:


Here's the same spin, but with some explanation from the pilot involved:



The PTS is there as a guide. Examiners are supposed to follow it, but if you look in the front cover, there are about 2 dozen books (I don't remember the exact number) from which knowledge for that certificate is pulled. The examiner could ask a question you've never heard of before, and it still be a legitimate question. Doesn't happen often at PP or instrument level, but it could.

That's helpful, because I always thought that the examiner was not allowed to go outside the PTS and that the PTS was to be strictly adhered to an not treated as a guide. So, thanks. I'll have to take a look at a copy of the PTS that I have again. I never noticed those texts that you allude to.


With all of this said, for PP and instrument, when your instructor signs you off to take the checkride, it's pretty much yours to lose. I've talked with several examiners that have told me that when they see the instructor's signature, they assume you're good, and all you have to do is not disprove that belief. If you know the PTS, and you know the knowledge required by the PTS, and you can do the maneuvers as well as the PTS lays out, you'll pass.

Good info - thanks!

I like "it's yours to lose." Its better than "someone trying to take it from you." Nothing to defend - just perform!
 
I took my PPL only a few months ago. The Oral Exam was just under two hours. My examiner basically went through the PTS and ask different questions. The average is usually two hours, at least with my Examiner. But, it can go way longer if they feel you aren't as well prepared. Just be over prepared, have everything and then some and it is a cake walk.
 
I didn't watch the entire video, but from what I sampled, it seemed to be similar to my PPL oral (which, to be fair, was in the early 90s, so things may have changed and my memory of a 2-hour event 18 years ago is probably pretty weak).

The biggest take-away I had from my PPL oral was that I didn't have to know every question in order to be successful. In fact, the DPEs seem to want to teach just a little, both on the ground and in the air, on checkrides. In order to do that, sometimes they'll find where the limits of your knowledge are.
 
That's helpful, because I always thought that the examiner was not allowed to go outside the PTS and that the PTS was to be strictly adhered to an not treated as a guide. So, thanks. I'll have to take a look at a copy of the PTS that I have again. I never noticed those texts that you allude to.

They're in the introduction. I highly recommend you READ the PTS in its entirety. It's pretty dry, but you know what you're getting into. Check out pages 3 and 4 in the PP PTS for the list of references. Keep in mind that while a book may be listed, there may only be a small percentage of that book you're supposed to be familiar with and some may not apply. For instance, "Flying Light Twins Safely" is listed, but if you're doing a single engine checkride, that obviously doesn't apply. The Aviation Weather has a section on high altitude weather, but if you're in a 172 or Cherokee, you probably aren't going to be questioned on that.


The biggest take-away I had from my PPL oral was that I didn't have to know every question in order to be successful. In fact, the DPEs seem to want to teach just a little, both on the ground and in the air, on checkrides. In order to do that, sometimes they'll find where the limits of your knowledge are.

Even though they're explicitly forbidden to do so... :rolleyes:
 
That video seems staged. The applicant is far too prepared- those could be cfi type answers. The examiner is way more professional than many dpe's you'll experience.In my experience dpe's come to your flight school and the oral is conducted in a briefing room or somewhere relatively quiet. The oral is always conducted before the flight and its length is dependent upon your responses and the DPE. You'll get questions on basic aerodynamics, systems, Xc planning, wx, aeromedical, special emphasis areas, etc. just use the pts as your guide. The oral is typically done all at once. The check ride can be discontinued if the flight is scheduled for a later date, if the weather is bad, if you are sick, etc. Also, if you fail the oral you will not fly afterwards.
 
I agree the video seems a bit staged. Although, it certainly has value in preparing for your PPL oral.

While there are certain items that should be committed to memory (e.g., v-speed and operating limitations of the airplane), your understanding and knowledge of your own responsibilities and limitations should be evident to the examiner. The accuracy of the facts can be verified in the appropriate source, but should not be consulted for all of your answers! For instance, you should know airspace cold and how to interpret a sectional chart. (If you are asked about a chart symbol you don't recall or have never seen, look in the chart legend!) You should know when you're due for your next flight review and how to maintain your flying privileges (currency requirements). You should also know what equipment malfunctions during preflight would make your airplane unairworthy. The examiner wants to be sure you're going to operate an airplane as Pilot In Command per the appropriate regulations. You get the idea...

However, I do not know any examiners that would bust you if, perhaps out of testing anxiety or nervousness, replied "I'm not sure about the answer to that. I think it's "XYZ", but I know where to find and verify the answer..." and you proceeded to look it up in the appropriate section of the FAR/AIM or other primary resource (besides simply searching on Google!). That would demonstrate that you care about knowing the correct answer, are familiar with the source material, will not B.S. your reply, and will act and base your aeronautical decisions only on accurate information.

But as it's mentioned above, all DPEs have their own quirks and styles. The CFI or school providing your training hopefully is not using you as a test subject to test out a new DPE. So it's 99% likely they have a rapport with the DPE and have used him/her recently with other students. I'm not suggesting that your training should be tailored for the DPE's checkride only; but reading a "gouge" of your particular DPE's past checkrides can help to calm you for what to expect of that DPE.

The training part has been done by the time you get to the checkride. If you have any reservations about an area of knowledge or something you need to demonstrate in an airplane, don't wait until the day before checkride day! Discuss it with your CFI or, if your need a second opinion, go over it with another CFI. The idea is that you are able to demonstrate how to operate as a safe, competent pilot-in-command and within the existing regulations and safety limitations.

-A.S>
 
Thanks for all the replies - they are helpful.

In particular, African_Swallow, brings up a good point that I was thinking about. I was wondering whether or not it would be appropriate to sit down with a prospective Flight Instructor before flight training begins, and work-up a syllabus for flight training from "A" to "Z" that aligned itself directly with the Practical Test Standards AND directly with the general approach that any DPE would have to take as a direct requirement of the FAA regulations that govern how they are supposed to administer both the Oral and Flight examination?

Ok, so that was a mouthful - let me break my question down into smaller pieces, so that everybody understands what I'm asking for help with.

Integrated Flight Training?

Somebody decides they want to learn how to fly. In order to do that safely and legally, they have to obtain a Private Pilots License (at a minimum). Obtaining that license requires (1) Self-Motivation, (2) Independent Study, (3) Ground & Flight Instruction, (4) Testing and (5) Certification. After that, you are free to do as much VFR Flying as your wallet can sustain. I think that sums up the nutshell of how one thinks about getting started.

I'm good with 1 and 2. My question is really related to whether or not one can take number 3 and tailor it to be in-line with 4 and 5, so that 4 and 5 become a natural extension of 3?

This is different than just going out and jumping into an aircraft with a flight instructor and saying, "Ok - now teach me how to fly an airplane." I'm wondering if there is a good way to tailor fit or integrate the actual day-to-day Flight Training and Flight Instruction given, to be synchronized with the actual Testing and Certification that comes later?

To further clarify, let me try to give an example of what I'm trying to avoid:

20+ years ago, I received roughly 3.5 hours of flight training in a Grumman Tiger and a Cessna 172. For a host of other reasons, I had to stop training and never flew again. 20 years later, I distinctly remember several things about those 3.5 hours;

- I remember exactly what I did with the aircraft
- I remember exactly what I was taught on those three days
- I do not remember feeling as though I was filling the blanks spaces between being a non-licensed pilot and a licensed pilot
- I do not remember any connection between what I was doing in the aircraft and its connection to a real pilots license
- I had no logical nexus between what I was doing and why it would matter later as a licensed PIC
- I felt like I was learning bits and pieces without having and vision as to how they were related to being a licensed pilot
- I felt like I was learning but I did not know why it was relevant to the bigger picture of being a licensed pilot

Clearly, I remember those three days just like they were yesterday. I'm trying to avoid that same feeling this time. This time will be much different as I intend to obtain ratings/certificates for:

- Glider
- Private
- Instrument
- Multi-Engine
- Commercial
- And a couple VLJ Type Ratings

Each one of those ratings and/or certificates has some kind of oral, written and flight test required. That's what I'm trying to streamline - the natural flow from the Instruction portion of any of these levels of certification, through the oral, written and flight test portions. In other words, I'm looking for a good way to make 3 through 5 as seamless and natural (smooth) as possible.
 
May not relate here but....

I just finished my instrument ride last Monday, almost 18 years since I took my last ride for PPL.
I flew about 20 hours of hood time 2 years ago before stopping for various reasons.
I flew 3 hours last year before the place I was using went BK
I said the heck with it and spent a month looking for an accelerated program so something wouldn't interfere with it again.

I had a set of Sporty's videos that happen to come with lesson plans to use, pretty much as you described above, though I never used them.

The written I took after 2 weeks or so of hitting the Dauntless test prep on my PC. If I had to do it again I would buy the Shepard (As I just did for CAX) as I had 4 questions I had never seen before using the Dauntless.

It was a month between written and my accelerated flying again. I started on one sunday and finished on the following one, 35 hours, ~32 of that under the hood. From the first Sunday until about Thursday's second flight I thought I would never be ready. I couldn't imagine how to visualize a hold without turning on my Foreflight for SA reference. I kept forgetting to set my timer, or do my pre-landing checklist. I just didn't think I would be ready.

For the second "Mock" ride on Thursday I switched the position of my timer to my clipboard, and wrote "Checklist" next to it. After that it all started to click! Even the holds, for some reason, became easy, something I would have never imagined earlier in the week.

By Sunday I was nailing everything.

By Sunday night I was in a panic as I had the flight down but hadn't touched the books and couldn't even remember what my last Oral was like (ok...insert joke here).

Checkride was 1PM on Monday, so I got to the club at 9am and found the little ASA Oral Prep guide we have on our bookshelf. Read all four chapters (Questions and answers) before the Oral began and looked over the charts and symbols once more. I was warned about this guy hitting weather hard so I made sure to prep on chart symbols for that as well.

Oral went like this:

I had to prep a flight plan from MKG to PTK the night before, along with weight and balance. Only Zinger there is the easy route uses the LAN VOR and its been out forever.

He looked over the Maint logs, asked when the annual was done, when the VOR checks were done and when do you normally perform IFR system tests. Then he wanted the "ARROW" documents.

We looked at my plan, he asked why I went farther North than the straight Victor airway and I explained the LAN VOR outage. Asked why 7000ft and I said winds were best there.

Asked me where I got my weather, had me bring up Aviationweather.gov on the ipad and talked through a few chart symbols, then asked about how close I would fly to certain radar returns we saw, talked about icing and its effect. Talked about IFR alternates, when required, limits for Precision and Non-Precision Alternates.

On to the Approach plates and describing symbols and approaches

Back to the Low enroute chart for symbols

Back to more "Judgement" call discussion for flights. Commeted that we did a Zero/ Zero takeoff and said why would anyone do that? Ask what takeoff min there are for Part 91, talked about requirements to land.

Discussed his airplane, features of Foreflight, took a short break.

Told me what we would do for the flight portion:

Begin the route planned, fly direct MKG VOR, Ourbound on V450, then he would do unusual attitudes. We would then ask for vectors to the ILS24 followed by the LOC BC 14 to full missed and hold, to the VOR-A Circle to land 24. Told me he would fail my vaccum system on the last approach.

Told me to use the iPad for first approach, then turn off GPS and continue to use iPad for my plates.

Said I passed the oral and at anytime he thought it was a bust in the air he would let me know as he "hates DPEs that play the surprise, you failed at the end game".

I verbalized everything I was doing and why I was doing it and what I would do next. He said he liked that and wished everyone would do it (Not my idea, great input from the guys on JC). When he failed my vaccum system I told him I would normally call the tower now and report a piece of cardboard was covering my vaccum guages, which at least got a smile...

I passed and looking back I was stressed over nothing. I hear IFR is one of the harder ride (other than CFI) and it seemed easier than my PPL.

Find a study method that works well for you and ask your CFI to help / work with you that way.
 
All of the posts here are helpful - thanks!


Told me he would fail my vaccum system on the last approach.

Hmmm. That's interesting because I was thinking that he would do something like that without telling you up front - to see how you would respond.

And, that sort of begs the not so obvious point of my original question: Do these Examiners have a responsibility to simply verify how much you know -or- to see how you react to unknown situations? Those can be two entirely different things. For example, I can ask you to tell me the name of the second President of the United States, while sitting down over coffee in the flight club lounge at the airport. Or, I can wait until you tight-rope walk your way across the Grand Canyon without a safety net, and then ask you for the name of the Second President of the United States.

I'd be asking the exact same question - but the conditions under which I asked the question could result in you giving the right answer effortlessly, or it could raise the appearance of you not knowing the answer as you are per-occupied with sight below your feet. Not sure if Examiners play that game or not - or if they are allowed to play that game by rule.


Told me to use the iPad for first approach, then turn off GPS and continue to use iPad for my plates.

Wow. Ok, so - this is one of those side-bar issues/questions for me. I've always thought that you were not allowed to use Non-Approved Equipment for the purpose of executing an IFR flight. I did not know that the iPad had been approved by the FAA for use in IFR operations. Yet, it must be - because your Examiner would not tell you to use something that was unapproved - right?

When did the iPad make the list of "approved" in-flight aids and/or equipment? I'm just curious.


I verbalized everything I was doing and why I was doing it and what I would do next. He said he liked that and wished everyone would do it (Not my idea, great input from the guys on JC).

An interesting point - I'll remember that.


When he failed my vaccum system I told him I would normally call the tower now and report a piece of cardboard was covering my vaccum guages, which at least got a smile...

Huh? A piece of cardboard? Oh! I get it, never mind! Instrument InOp.


I passed and looking back I was stressed over nothing. I hear IFR is one of the harder ride (other than CFI) and it seemed easier than my PPL.

Wow! You make the IFR examination seem even more easier than the VFR private! Did all of you have the same experience with your Instrument?

It just seems like so much more work involved. A long time ago, I got the King Schools VFR Course. I also got the Jeppesen IFR course. I was going to review them both, to see which style of video instruction I liked the best, before buying the kitchen sink on all the related instruction products.

Of course, I stopped after 3.5 hours as stated above. However, I've probably watched both the King VFR Video Series and the Jeppesen IFR Video Series several times over by now, and I recall the Instrument course had a ton of detail when it came to understanding IFR approaches. I mean, it seems like you could spend a whole day (literally) on just the Approach Plates alone - because each airport is different.

Stuff like - does an approach have WAAS, does it not have WAAS - is WAAS necessary for that kind of approach. Is it RNAV. Is it LNAV. What's the difference. When is WAAS necessary and what equipment qualifies. What if you don't have WAAS equipment but the approach is still technically GNSS....etc. I mean, the Instrument Rating does seem a LOT more involved than the VFR. Am I right about that?

Find a study method that works well for you and ask your CFI to help / work with you that way.

That's interesting because doing that would seem to rule out most of the Flight Schools, given their already existing Course Syllabus. I would hazard to guess that a company like ATP as just one example, would probably not appreciate me asking them to tailor the Instructors approach to what I'm trying to accomplish - yes/no?

Thanks!
 
I'll try to cover what you asked.

First, this DPE is very fair. Will they all tell you what to expect? Don't know. It's your choice who you take your ride with, shop around and ask for experiences in your area

I have another ride Sunday for seaplane and I hear one is great and the other is tough, won't have the choice in this case unless I want to come back, so I'm willing to take my chance.

You're part 91, iPad is allowed as long as your plates are current. I also have paper backup.

For me, IFR ride seemed easier than PPL. Make no mistake though, I flew my butt off for 30+ hours in the week before the ride. I had flown every approach we would use over a dozen times. I had a great instructor and he made sure I was ready. Also, as long as I'm not violating something, the IFR ride isn't thereto check how good my landings are or whether I can calculate time to climb and fuel burned for such. It's pretty much approaches, holds, unusual attitudes and IFR planning.

If you're in a 141 school or at a place like ATP, you'll be following their syllabus. Not that it's a bad thing, as they have graduated hundreds of students, but they aren't going to want to bend to your desires.
 
Examiners are not there to fail students, the applicants fail for the basic reason of not knowing the material being asked. For every checkride you have to be prepare for the worst and then you will see that is going to be a walk in the park.............
 
Wow! You make the IFR examination seem even more easier than the VFR private!

IMHO, your PPL checkride is the the toughest one you will see until you take your initial CFI ride. Not because things are particularly complicated, but because you are starting from nothing and are expected to learn a great deal on a broad array of subjects.

When you learn to fly on instruments, you are adding a skill set on to the ones you already have.


I can tell from your posts that you are the type of student who likes to thoroughly understand all the theory behind flying before ever walking out to the airplane. This is both a great benefit and a hindrance when learning how to fly. In your first 3 lessons 20 years ago, you were only being given the edges to the puzzle. Only the essential information so that you could learn to crawl. As your training progresses you will be given the rest of the puzzle and things will make more sense. Then and only then will you start to walk and ultimately run.
 
Back
Top