Traffic 12 o'clock 7 miles type and altitude unknown

Fencer

Fencer

Experimentalist
On long trips I usually ask for VFR radar services and I was never refused. Sometimes I fly without talking to ATC but I always monitor corresponding frequency.

Peacefully sitting on 10.5 minding my own business on the way from FL. Center to somebody - Sheetakwa XXX traffic 12 o'clock 7 miles north bound 10.4 indicated report in sight. OK, everybody happy.

In 10 minutes, still in the same sector, I believe the same controller to other aircraft - CommuterXXX traffic 1 o'clock type and altitude unknown... (????) I was his traffic and saw him, he never saw me but reported on fish finder.

Why different answers? Is there a radar inability? Unreadability? Other reasons not to give him my alt and heading?
 
If he hasn't verified your altitude then he can't use your altitude.

Indicating and Altitude unknown are essentially the same thing "I don't know for sure what altitude this guy is at"
 
I'm not sure...in the US I have heard: " traffic x'clock 2 miles, 2,500 unverified". Is it different in Canada?
 
N519AT said:
I'm not sure...in the US I have heard: " traffic x'clock 2 miles, 2,500 unverified". Is it different in Canada?
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Nope, that's what you'd hear up here as well.

What I meant to say was that even though he can see your Mode C, he can't be sure that it is accurate, thus can't pass it as a "fact" hence the unverified/indicated etc
 
In the US, if the unidentified aircraft has an operating mode C transponder, the correct phraseology is always "altitude INDICATES two thousand five hundred," for example.

If the aircraft does not have mode C or no transponder at all, the correct phraseology is always "altitude unknown." "Type and altitude unknown" is antiquated and improper, and definitely shouldn't be used to describe a target with a mode C readout anyway.

You have no way of knowing you were the aircraft on either traffic call for sure. It's possible the first call was referencing you, and the second was referencing a primary only target very close to you, or NEITHER call was about you. Also possible is that due to your position to the radar antenna, your transponder information may have dropped off temporarily during the second traffic call. Happens all the time, even with tagged and verified targets.
 
FM_Weasel said:
If the aircraft does not have mode C or no transponder at all, the correct phraseology is always "altitude unknown." "Type and altitude unknown" is antiquated and improper, and definitely shouldn't be used to describe a target with a mode C readout anyway.
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What the reason for that being antiquated and improper?

Kind of like "Squawk LO"?
 
It's just not in the book anymore. The only reference I've heard to it is older controllers saying it "used to be" in the book. Which lately I find is half true/half fabrication. Without a historical collection of 7110.65 manuals, I couldn't say for sure whether it was or wasn't. I suppose there's no harm in the phraseology, it's just extra words. I think if you say that the altitude is unknown, and also omit the type, it's assumed that you are not aware of the type in the firs place.

I think "Squawk LO" is still in the book, but I've never had a reason to use it.
 
Thats interesting. Yes, I don't know one way or the other either whether it was technique or procedure. Was just wondering.
 
Just some extra whiz-bang info, here's the excerpt from the 7110.65:

2−1−21. TRAFFIC ADVISORIES

Unless an aircraft is operating within Class A airspace
or omission is requested by the pilot, issue traffic
advisories to all aircraft (IFR or VFR) on your
frequency when, in your judgment, their proximity
may diminish to less than the applicable separation
minima. Where no separation minima applies, such
as for VFR aircraft outside of Class B/Class C
airspace, or a TRSA, issue traffic advisories to those
aircraft on your frequency when in your judgment
their proximity warrants it. Provide this service as
follows:

a. To radar identified aircraft:

1. Azimuth from aircraft in terms of the 12−hour
clock, or

2. When rapidly maneuvering aircraft prevent
accurate issuance of traffic as in 1 above, specify the
direction from an aircraft’s position in terms of the
eight cardinal compass points (N, NE, E, SE, S, SW,
W, and NW). This method must be terminated at the
pilot’s request.

3. Distance from aircraft in miles.

4. Direction in which traffic is proceeding
and/or relative movement of traffic.

NOTE−
Relative movement includes closing, converging, parallel
same direction, opposite direction, diverging, overtaking,
crossing left to right, crossing right to left.

5. If known, type of aircraft and altitude.
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And here are the phraseology options:

TRAFFIC, (number) O’CLOCK,

or when appropriate,

(direction) (number) MILES, (direction)−BOUND and/or
(relative movement),

and if known,

(type of aircraft and altitude).

or

When appropriate,

(type of aircraft and relative position), (number of feet)
FEET ABOVE/BELOW YOU.

If altitude is unknown,

ALTITUDE UNKNOWN.
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Examples:

“Traffic, eleven o’clock, one zero miles, southbound,
converging, Boeing Seven Twenty Seven, one seven
thousand.”

“Traffic, twelve o’clock, one five miles, opposite direction,
altitude unknown.”

“Traffic, ten o’clock, one two miles, southeast bound,
one thousand feet below you.”
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This has been good review for me, especially concerning subpara a. 2. To rapidly maneuvering aircraft, I've always said:

"Traffic, 5 miles Northeast of your position, Southwest bound,"

But it should really be:

"Traffic Northeast, 5 miles, Southwest bound,"

I guess we all take our liberties with the by-the-book verbiage.

Extra EXTRA whiz-bang information:

The only useful from the pilot to this traffic information is "Negative Contact" or "Traffic In Sight." I'm not saying every situation is hard coded in robotic phraseology, but so many responses to traffic calls get outrageously long winded (much like non standard traffic calls by ATC can get long winded). Short and sweet makes everything run more smoothly.
 
or just some traffic dodgeing office type in DC trying to justifie their job by makeing BS changes to the 7110. i used that phrase (unverfied) till i retired. hay old timer remember the old "IDENT" crap back in 1987 iam sure the new kiddies never heard of that one too.
 
Gents,
While everybody is in this room let me ask you something. I am planning VFR to Nova Scotia next weekend weather permitting. The route will likely look like this


c3c17504.jpg



I have O2 and would like to go either 17.5 or 15.5. How the handoff would look like? How and where it might take place? Will I keep the same code or new one is assigned in Canada? There is a corner of ADIZ which is kind of on the way that's why I plan sidestepping over Grand Manan Island. Is it possible to cut that corner and how to do it if yes?
 
queeno said:
or just some traffic dodgeing office type in DC trying to justifie their job by makeing BS changes to the 7110. i used that phrase (unverfied) till i retired. hay old timer remember the old "IDENT" crap back in 1987 iam sure the new kiddies never heard of that one too.
Click to expand...

So angry.... So angry.
 
Fencer said:
Gents,
While everybody is in this room let me ask you something. I am planning VFR to Nova Scotia next weekend weather permitting. The route will likely look like this





I have O2 and would like to go either 17.5 or 15.5. How the handoff would look like? How and where it might take place? Will I keep the same code or new one is assigned in Canada? There is a corner of ADIZ which is kind of on the way that's why I plan sidestepping over Grand Manan Island. Is it possible to cut that corner and how to do it if yes?
Click to expand...
;)

I see you're planning on flying to Yarmouth, CYQI, I've been living and flying in Atlantic Canada for 12 years now, and I want to just say, on 15 different occasions I had plans to fly to YQI, every single time it socked in with fog. The rest of the planet can be screaming VFR, Yarmouth can be 1/8 mile, and it socks in fast often unforcasted.

Not saying you can't fly there, but plan a good alternate, CYSJ is similar weather, CYFC or CYQM have decent weather year round, CYHZ can be touchy as well as a VFR airport.

If you're IFR, then forget the previous few lines.

Come to CYQM, I'll buy your beer.
 
N O T E S :
1: No person shall operate an aircraft in Class B controlled airspace in VFR flight unless:
(a)the aircraft is equipped with:
1. radio communication equipment capable of two-way communication with the
appropriate ATS facility, and
2. radio navigation equipment capable of using navigation facilities to enable the aircraft
to be operated in accordance with the flight plan, and
3.a transponder and automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment;
(b) a continuous listening watch is maintained by a flight crew member on a radio frequency
a s s ign ed b y ATC;
(c) except as otherwise authorized by ATC, when the aircraft is over a reporting point a position
report is transmitted to the appropriate unit or, when so directed by ATC, to an FSS; and
(d) the aircraft is operated in VMC at all times.
2: A person operating an aircraft on a VFR flight in Class B airspace shall operate the aircraft in VMC at all times. When
it becomes evident that flight in VMC will not be possible at the altitude or along the route specified, t h e p i l o t s h a l l :
(a)request an ATC clearance which will enable the aircraft to be operated in VMC to the
filed destination, or to another aerodrome;
(b)where the person is the holder of a valid instrument rating, request an IFR clearance for flight
under the instrument flight rules; or
(c)where the Class B airspace is a control zone, request an authorization for special VFR flight,
3: A person operating an aircraft in Class B controlled airspace in VFR flight who is unable to comply with the
requirements of the preceding paragraphs shall ensure that:
(a) the aircraft is operated in VMC at all times;
(b) the aircraft leaves Class B controlled airspace:
1. by the safest and shortest route, either exiting horizontally or descending, or
2. when that airspace is a control zone, by landing at the aerodrome on which the control
zone is based, and
(c) an ATC unit is informed as soon as possible of the actions taken pursuant to paragraph (b).

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A little different than the US if Im not mistaken?
 
thesoonerkid said:
whats this ident thing you speak of?
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back in 1987 the brain trust in DC thought that controllers were haveing too many "deals" (loss of seperation) and belived that controllers in a automated radar environment with a full data block didnt know where the aircraft were after takeing a automated handoff ( oh yes they ARE that stupid). so one dumb ass from the brain trust decided that all radar controller shall have the aircraft ident on initial contact so we would know where the aircraft was (of course to take a hand off you must slew over the target to accept the hand off so your looking at the target and its position).well the whole thing was not only a pain in the ass and wasted time on the freq it bacame a real joke with the pilots " hay Chicago UAL1 is with you and heres you ident HAHHAHAHAHAHAHA" about %50 of the controller didnt do it under protest and this only lasted about 2 to 3 weeks before the order was recended, but iam sure someone got a nice bonus that year.
 
queeno said:
or just some traffic dodgeing office type in DC trying to justifie their job by makeing BS changes to the 7110. i used that phrase (unverfied) till i retired. hay old timer remember the old "IDENT" crap back in 1987 iam sure the new kiddies never heard of that one too.
Click to expand...
Probably got a cash award for the change too.

Between military and your beloved FFA ;) I've been in the ATC game for 12+ years and The change is recent enough that I know for a fact it was in the .65 when I started. Some of the changes make no sense at all too. A while back they made some stupid rule ATC was not allowed to change speeds or altitudes on departures/arrivals. Like you said some desk jockey who is "bored" (swear on my grandmothers grave I have heard that excuse for taking a HQ job) with actually controlling thinking he/she knows better then the rest of us.
 
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