I really NEED help!!!

[cmill]

killbilly, I completely agree. They are not mutually exclusive, which is why it (flying for GA while working on my CFI, etc..) is a route that I have considered.



This is what I've learned in the short time I've been on Earth; 1. Life is not fair. 2. Nobody is going to pay my bills should I fall on my face, not a union, and not a corporation. 3. I am exactly in life where I put myself mentally. 4. My goals and objectives define what and where I want to be. 5. If I'm not paying someone else's bills, or have a very clear picture of that person's finances, I'm not qualified to speak on what is best for them, as much as I'd like to think I am.

I, admittedly, am new at this whole flying game. I'm (this) close to being done with my Commercial. Still have multi add-on, CFI, etc. left. A whole whopping 450 hours underneath me. I'm new. And I'm in the "Why??" stage of my infancy. But, I've seen people get bashed for taking $14,000 a year to fly a plane, I've seen people get bashed for taking $300 dollars a day to right seat in a 402 or a King Air. But, here's the deal. SOMEONE will fly for $14,000 a year or $300 a day because they know it's a means to an end. If I had to explain it, I'd say that it was an opportunity that I acted on to get me the time to qualify me to sit in front of you. If I had the drive to work a full time gig while continuing my education and ratings, I'd think that would work in my favor.

Life is a game. The objective of the game is to do whatever it takes to provide a quality of life for myself and my family. Would you agree with this? Will I go fly for $14,000 a year if I can afford to do it, and understand that it's just part of the process to get to where I want to be in the long run? Yep. I would. Why? Because if I don't, I'll still be at home playing XBox wishing I was flying airplanes, while someone with less pride and clearly defined goals is flying airplanes. Or, I'll be sitting in a 172 with a kid from Korea who has no desire to be there, but knows if he finishes this stupid flight program, he can go home, and fly an airplane to escape poverty. That's the real deal.

Pilots are going to talk smack. That's the nature of the beast. Sully gets obliterated by hating pilots. And I'm not even qualified to hold his flight case. Why would I let anyone like that have ANY influence in my life? Maybe the reason you encountered ex-military people who thought like I do was because they understood that haters hate. That's what they do, and that the haters wouldn't pay their bills, anyways.

Will you pay my bills if I sit on the sidelines waiting for the "perfect job" to come along? It might be a while. Understand, I'm not trying to be adversarial with you. I am just trying to make a point.

First, excellent post.

Second, I thought the whole point of this job was sit at home and play X box.

Point being: Haters hate. I get that. No one here is saying that you have to do X because thats the way that its always been done. Please just dont lower the bar on your way to the top. IIRC you used to be a controller, and thats great, but things dont work the same when your job isnt payed for by the government. Thats not a flame, it just is what it is. If you keep the attitude of FU, im getting mine, then good luck. If it doesnt work out, then i look forward to seeing you as you drop back down towards the bottom.

Just do all of us a favor, and dont come bitching about 14k 2 years from now when you're still working on a contract and wondering how it all went wrong.

 

[GX]

First, excellent post.

Second, I thought the whole point of this job was sit at home and play X box.

Point being: Haters hate. I get that. No one here is saying that you have to do X because thats the way that its always been done. Please just dont lower the bar on your way to the top. IIRC you used to be a controller, and thats great, but things dont work the same when your job isnt payed for by the government. Thats not a flame, it just is what it is. If you keep the attitude of FU, im getting mine, then good luck. If it doesnt work out, then i look forward to seeing you as you drop back down towards the bottom.

Just do all of us a favor, and dont come bitching about 14k 2 years from now when you're still working on a contract and wondering how it all went wrong.

Thanks, and no offense taken. I was a controller. I am now the owner of a rapidly growing small business. I understand that things don't work the same in the private sector. Painfully aware. I have a budget that I MUST adhere to.

I was going to add this as I thought more about what I posted; Nobody wants to make $14,000 a year. There are people at GL who are actively working to make those conditions better for those pilots. If I sit at home, I lose an opportunity to contribute to finding a solution to that problem. Or, I can jump in, and get into the fight. I think it comes down to what someone accomplishes while they're in a position. If I take a job, go in with the attitude, "I'm here to build hours... After that, peace out, dog." I'm doing it wrong. It wouldn't matter if I was making $14,000 or $14,000,000. If I made $14,000,000 and was a schmuck about it, you'd still say I was a schmuck, not that I was doing what was in the best interest of the industry, and was doing what was in the best interest of the pilots because I made $14,000,000. You get that, right?

If I go in and say, "Hey, where are things on that contract negotiation, and is there anything that I can do to help?" than I'm doing something to add value to every pilot at the airline. It's all about attitude, and what someone's goals are.

 

[cmill]

Thanks, and no offense taken. I was a controller. I am now the owner of a rapidly growing small business. I understand that things don't work the same in the private sector. Painfully aware. I have a budget that I MUST adhere to.

I was going to add this as I thought more about what I posted; Nobody wants to make $14,000 a year. There are people at GL who are actively working to make those conditions better for those pilots. If I sit at home, I lose an opportunity to contribute to finding a solution to that problem. Or, I can jump in, and get into the fight. I think it comes down to what someone accomplishes while they're in a position. If I take a job, go in with the attitude, "I'm here to build hours... After that, peace out, dog." I'm doing it wrong. It wouldn't matter if I was making $14,000 or $14,000,000. If I made $14,000,000 and was a schmuck about it, you'd still say I was a schmuck, not that I was doing what was in the best interest of the industry, and was doing what was in the best interest of the pilots because I made $14,000,000. You get that, right?

If I go in and say, "Hey, where are things on that contract negotiation, and is there anything that I can do to help?" than I'm doing something to add value to every pilot at the airline. It's all about attitude, and what someone's goals are.

I get that position, but it seems like somewhat of a screwed up thing to do. If i went to burger king, and then bitched about getting paid minimum wage, whose the ass? Everyone knows the terms, but it must be okay if i have an opportunity to work my way up to fry cook.

 

[MikeD]

I, admittedly, am new at this whole flying game. I'm (this) close to being done with my Commercial. Still have multi add-on, CFI, etc. left. A whole whopping 450 hours underneath me. I'm new. And I'm in the "Why??" stage of my infancy. But, I've seen people get bashed for taking $14,000 a year to fly a plane, I've seen people get bashed for taking $300 dollars a day to right seat in a 402 or a King Air. But, here's the deal. SOMEONE will fly for $14,000 a year or $300 a day because they know it's a means to an end. If I had to explain it, I'd say that it was an opportunity that I acted on to get me the time to qualify me to sit in front of you. If I had the drive to work a full time gig while continuing my education and ratings, I'd think that would work in my favor.

Unfortunately, that's why the flying profession continues to be on the slide down that it is. People willing to work for beans because "if I don't, someone else will". The proverbial self-licking ice cream cone. An entry-level job is one thing, but one that isn't entry level will only be brought down to that level because of management that has a stack of resumes of those willing to essentially prostitute themselves out. Not much that can be done about it, I suppose, because the supply will always be there. Someone will always do it, and pay and QOL will always remain low. Not a hit on you personally, since you can't be expected to know how much you don't know.

Life is a game. The objective of the game is to do whatever it takes to provide a quality of life for myself and my family. Would you agree with this? Will I go fly for $14,000 a year if I can afford to do it, and understand that it's just part of the process to get to where I want to be in the long run? Yep. I would. Why? Because if I don't, I'll still be at home playing XBox wishing I was flying airplanes, while someone with less pride and clearly defined goals is flying airplanes. Or, I'll be sitting in a 172 with a kid from Korea who has no desire to be there, but knows if he finishes this stupid flight program, he can go home, and fly an airplane to escape poverty. That's the real deal. Of course that's not every CFI's experience, but it's the experience of the vast majority of the CFI's I talk to daily.

Im of the camp that if someone doesn't want to instruct, they shouldn't become CFIs. There are many ways to build time without instructing; it's just that instructing is one of the more common and available routes. It's no better or worse than any other route, it's just one of many available. Instructing isn't all roses and fun, and truly, no flying gig is. But it is what one makes of it. The examples above, the people involved might just not like the particular environment they're instructing in, and who knows what other kinds of ancilliary reasons there are that they don't like?

Pilots are going to talk smack. That's the nature of the beast. Sully gets obliterated by hating pilots. And I'm not even qualified to hold his flight case. Why would I let anyone like that have ANY influence in my life? Maybe the reason you encountered ex-military people who thought like I do was because they understood that haters hate. That's what they do. And the haters wouldn't pay their bills, anyways.

Will you pay my bills if I sit on the sidelines waiting for the "perfect job" to come along? It might be a while. Understand, I'm not trying to be adversarial with you. I am just trying to make a point.

There is no perfect job and sitting around obviously isn't productive; but lowering your self worth for getting paid far below what should be getting paid for a particular job isn't really productive either, for you or the profession as a whole. Haters are always going to hate, so take them for what they are worth; but there is some really good info out there that can even be gleaned from between the lines of some hate posters and their posts.

 

[MikeD]

I was going to add this as I thought more about what I posted; Nobody wants to make $14,000 a year. There are people at GL who are actively working to make those conditions better for those pilots. If I sit at home, I lose an opportunity to contribute to finding a solution to that problem. Or, I can jump in, and get into the fight. I think it comes down to what someone accomplishes while they're in a position. If I take a job, go in with the attitude, "I'm here to build hours... After that, peace out, dog." I'm doing it wrong. It wouldn't matter if I was making $14,000 or $14,000,000. If I made $14,000,000 and was a schmuck about it, you'd still say I was a schmuck, not that I was doing what was in the best interest of the industry, and was doing what was in the best interest of the pilots because I made $14,000,000. You get that, right?

If I go in and say, "Hey, where are things on that contract negotiation, and is there anything that I can do to help?" than I'm doing something to add value to every pilot at the airline. It's all about attitude, and what someone's goals are.

The problem is the supply of people willing to work at these places. You can rationalize it all you like, using the above overly-idealistic thought process; but the true issue is that places like GL have zero problem attracting people to their operation. Hell, they could cut wages 50%, and still likely have a stack of resumes waiting.

 

[MikeD]

I get that position, but it seems like somewhat of a screwed up thing to do. If i went to burger king, and then bitched about getting paid minimum wage, whose the ass? Everyone knows the terms, but it must be okay if i have an opportunity to work my way up to fry cook.

Only problem is, Burger King probably pays better than GL to begin with.

 

[cmill]

Only problem is, Burger King probably pays better than GL to begin with.

From what i can figure, at 8 bucks an hour, BK broiler man pays 16.6K/year.

I'm going to pull out my FNH now.

 

[GX]

MikeD A question. If there is a ready supply of pilots willing to do the work, doesn't that indicate a changing of the industry? If the industry is changing, wouldn't it make sense to put oneself in a position to take advantage of those changes? I'm not trying to rationalize this. You think I'm thrilled at the prospects of making $14,000 a year to build turbine time, as a qualified and "professional" pilot? It takes $12,000 a month to run my farm. A month. Just to keep my doors open. It's almost not worth my time, honestly. But this is a check that needs to be put in the box. It's called the "Multi-Engine Turbine Time" box. And, for me, at 36, I don't have the luxury of sitting around waiting for the "ideal" situation, as there is no ideal situation in this industry. Talk to 10 different people about the state of the industry, the next 6 months in this industry, let alone the next 12 months in this industry, and you'll get 10 completely different answers. Ask any professional pilot which time has more value, and carries more weight in an interview; CFI time in a 172, or multi turbine time, and all of those answers are consistent; METT. Across the board.

Ask WHY people are willing to work for a 50% pay decrease and start there. These people accepting beans for pay is no reflection on the people, it's a reflection of the industry.... And why do I want to do this again??? Seriously, the union claims to have the power to stop the low pay, but to date, they have been unable to arrest the reduction in pay throughout the industry. Why? It's because the rules have changed. And people are either going to adapt to the new rules, or keep playing the game bitter and disenfranchised. Or they'll get left behind, holding out and waiting for the "ideal situation" with the "right pay". The union is required to say the right things because if they don't they get replaced, or fired, or removed. But they have absolutely no control over the market. And the market is dictating the new rules.

I see this industry in a race to the bottom, much like every other industry, and only the market will dictate where it stops. A pilot's union will not. At some point, the investment required to get the training won't be worth the return on that investment, and people will stop getting trained all together, and there you will find the bottom. But will you really? There's a missing factor, and that factor is the military pipeline. But even after the military fills the pipeline, there will be enough bodies to fill any void left by people not getting into the industry.

If I want to fly a "shiny" jet there are certain checks to be put in the blocks. CFI'ing is one of those. I'm a firm advocate of doing SOME CFI work. I became a SIGNIFICANTLY better controller when I trained the next person to fill in behind me. I clearly understand the connection between being a better anything by having to teach someone else. I need to have X hours of turbine, actual instrument etc.

cmill

I don't think your comparison with Burger King is a fair comparison. There are few industries where one is required to start at the absolute bottom in order to get promoted, or move vertically within an organization. The aviation industry requires this. If the requirement to become the Director of Sales for Waste Management was to start in one of their trash dumps, than move into a trash truck driver, how many people would do it? And how many would see it to the end? If the requirement to become Director of Marketing at Burger King was X number of hours flipping burgers, how many would do it? And what would that position be worth at that point?

 

[MikeD]

A question. If there is a ready supply of pilots willing to do the work, doesn't that indicate a changing of the industry? If the industry is changing, wouldn't it make sense to put oneself in a position to take advantage of those changes? I'm not trying to rationalize this. You think I'm thrilled at the prospects of making $14,000 a year to build turbine time, as a qualified and "professional" pilot? It takes $12,000 a month to run my farm. A month. Just to keep my doors open. It's almost not worth my time, honestly. But this is a check that needs to be put in the box. It's called the "Multi-Engine Turbine Time" box. And, for me, at 36, I don't have the luxury of sitting around waiting for the "ideal" situation, as there is no ideal situation in this industry. Talk to 10 different people about the state of the industry, the next 6 months in this industry, let alone the next 12 months in this industry, and you'll get 10 completely different answers. Ask any professional pilot which time has more value, and carries more weight in an interview; CFI time in a 172, or multi turbine time, and all of those answers are consistent; METT. Across the board.

What is changing? There's always a supply of pilots who want to work for the supposed-thrill of flying or the shiny jet syndrome. Of course there's no ideal job, but working for beans is working for beans. If you can afford to do it, go ahead. But realize that you're not doing it for the idealistic reasoning you wrote earlier "taking the fight to the inside", you're simply doing it for you. And thats fine, so long as you're honest with yourself about that. The industry isn't going to change in this way, in terms of crappy paying jobs, until the supply of chumps willing to work for that crappy pay dwindles. Management has no reason to raise pay......and I agree with them, why should they? Someone is always willing to take the job.

Ask WHY people are willing to work for a 50% pay decrease and start there. These people accepting beans for pay is no reflection on the people, it's a reflection of the industry.... And why do I want to do this again??? Seriously, the union claims to have the power to stop the low pay, but to date, they have been unable to arrest the reduction in pay throughout the industry. Why? It's because the rules have changed. And people are either going to adapt to the new rules, or keep playing the game bitter and disenfranchised. Or they'll get left behind, holding out and waiting for the "ideal situation" with the "right pay".

It's a COMPLETE reflection on the people, more specifically, their lack of self worth for their training, talents, and responsibility as a pilot. The industry is not at fault at all......they're only reacting to what the people are willing to work for, which is low pay. The willingness is more than apparent, what with all these crappy companies that have no shortage in their stack of resumes. The company knows that there will always be some chump willing and salivating to have the chance to fly a plane first, and worry about pay later; and even work for lower than the next guy is being paid. Companies like these are the ones that need to go away, but they only will when people STOP going to work for them. Until then, it'll be status quo.

I see this industry in a race to the bottom, much like every other industry, and only the market will dictate where it stops. A pilot's union will not. At some point, the investment required to get the training won't be worth the return on that investment, and people will stop getting trained all together, and there you will find the bottom. But will you really? There's a missing factor, and that factor is the military pipeline. But even after the military fills the pipeline, there will be enough bodies to fill any void left by people not getting into the industry.

A big part of the race to the bottom, is the number of pilots willing to work at places that feed at the bottom.....the bottom feeder operations. And management knows this, and expolits it. And why shouldn't they? Military pipeline isn't all that large these days; but there is no shortage of pilot mills and aviation university/college programs cranking out pilots either.

I don't think your comparison with Burger King is a fair comparison. There are few industries where one is required to start at the absolute bottom in order to get promoted, or move vertically within an organization. The aviation industry requires this. If the requirement to become the Director of Sales for Waste Management was to start in one of their trash dumps, than move into a trash truck driver, how many people would do it? And how many would see it to the end? If the requirement to become Director of Marketing at Burger King was X number of hours flipping burgers, how many would do it? And what would that position be worth at that point?

Yet look at the qualifications required for the pilot to start at the bottom, versus the BK burger flipper. The pilot has a good chunk of money invested, likely 6 figures worth, just to get a chance to start at the bottom. The BK burger flipper comes into burger flipping with no prior experience. Though the pilot has more pre-requisites, more overall technical aspect to the job, and overall a much responsibility and risk level; the burger flipper still makes more. Why? Because he can. Because there aren't people running to BK to try and undercut him in his job. In aviation, there are those people, and alot of them.

 

[cmill]

MikeD A question. If there is a ready supply of pilots willing to do the work, doesn't that indicate a changing of the industry? If the industry is changing, wouldn't it make sense to put oneself in a position to take advantage of those changes? I'm not trying to rationalize this. You think I'm thrilled at the prospects of making $14,000 a year to build turbine time, as a qualified and "professional" pilot? It takes $12,000 a month to run my farm. A month. Just to keep my doors open. It's almost not worth my time, honestly. But this is a check that needs to be put in the box. It's called the "Multi-Engine Turbine Time" box. And, for me, at 36, I don't have the luxury of sitting around waiting for the "ideal" situation, as there is no ideal situation in this industry. Talk to 10 different people about the state of the industry, the next 6 months in this industry, let alone the next 12 months in this industry, and you'll get 10 completely different answers. Ask any professional pilot which time has more value, and carries more weight in an interview; CFI time in a 172, or multi turbine time, and all of those answers are consistent; METT. Across the board.

Ask WHY people are willing to work for a 50% pay decrease and start there. These people accepting beans for pay is no reflection on the people, it's a reflection of the industry.... And why do I want to do this again??? Seriously, the union claims to have the power to stop the low pay, but to date, they have been unable to arrest the reduction in pay throughout the industry. Why? It's because the rules have changed. And people are either going to adapt to the new rules, or keep playing the game bitter and disenfranchised. Or they'll get left behind, holding out and waiting for the "ideal situation" with the "right pay". The union is required to say the right things because if they don't they get replaced, or fired, or removed. But they have absolutely no control over the market. And the market is dictating the new rules.

I see this industry in a race to the bottom, much like every other industry, and only the market will dictate where it stops. A pilot's union will not. At some point, the investment required to get the training won't be worth the return on that investment, and people will stop getting trained all together, and there you will find the bottom. But will you really? There's a missing factor, and that factor is the military pipeline. But even after the military fills the pipeline, there will be enough bodies to fill any void left by people not getting into the industry.

cmill

I don't think your comparison with Burger King is a fair comparison. There are few industries where one is required to start at the absolute bottom in order to get promoted, or move vertically within an organization. The aviation industry requires this. If the requirement to become the Director of Sales for Waste Management was to start in one of their trash dumps, than move into a trash truck driver, how many people would do it? And how many would see it to the end? If the requirement to become Director of Marketing at Burger King was X number of hours flipping burgers, how many would do it? And what would that position be worth at that point?

If I want to fly a "shiny" jet there are certain checks to be put in the blocks. CFI'ing is one of those. I'm a firm advocate of doing SOME CFI work. I became a SIGNIFICANTLY better controller when I trained the next person to fill in behind me. I clearly understand the connection between being a better anything by having to teach someone else. I need to have X hours of turbine, actual instrument etc.

I'm sorry Canassis, im not fighting you, far from it, i really respect you. Its a •e state of affairs that the industry is in right now, and I dont see how guys going to work for 14k a year is helping anything.

Maybe im bitter because i rolled eight the hard way, but looking back, i wouldnt change a thing. I mean, in all honesty, i only have 500 hours of dual given under my belt, i didnt even teach for that long. In the end i would just ask you to PLEASE consider not going to work for a company like GL. Things will work out, and i know some of us are operating under a shorter career clock than others, ,but just dont feed the flames.

 

[GX]

I'm sorry Canassis, im not fighting you, far from it, i really respect you. Its a e state of affairs that the industry is in right now, and I dont see how guys going to work for 14k a year is helping anything.

Maybe im bitter because i rolled eight the hard way, but looking back, i wouldnt change a thing. I mean, in all honesty, i only have 500 hours of dual given under my belt, i didnt even teach for that long. In the end i would just ask you to PLEASE consider not going to work for a company like GL. Things will work out, and i know some of us are operating under a shorter career clock than others, ,but just dont feed the flames.

I'm not taking what you're saying as fighting with me. I think we're having some great dialogue. Everything that you're saying is totally valid, and I'll consider what you're saying.

Both of yous. Mike, and CMill

Let's talk about pay for just a second, though, just to put it into perspective. From the GL website:

Guaranteed monthly salary is based upon a 75 hour guarantee. Any hours credited in excess of 75 hours will be compensated at the standard hourly rate. $1.35 Per Diem paid per hour when away from home base. $16.24/HR
​

Quick math says $33,800 gross. And it IS gross. I agree. But it's better than what a college graduate in a first job will make. As it should be. But how did the $14,000 number start, and where does that come from? Maybe the $33,800 is what I saw to make me think it might be a viable option. Any insight would be appreciated.

Ok, Mike... What has changed? In what timeframe? Much has changed in the airline industry in the last 2 years, let alone 10. I'm looking at this from a dollars and cents, stabilty, revenue angle. The industry is in complete influx and has been relatively unstable since, well, I'm inclined to say 2001, but it was long before that.

As for the "idealistic ideas" that I have, they're really not all that idealistic. I will offer to help in anyway possible to create a better working environment for others. If I'm too green for that undertaking, well, than I'll be there for my own reasons, yes. If you're going to suggest that I have a poor self-worth because I'm willing to work for $33,800 annually, to create an opportunity down the road, I'll ask what having expenses of $12,000+ a month says about me.

As a CFI, I'll make $25 an hour. At $54,000 annually, I'll fall into a higher tax bracket and will net less than I would at GL. It's close, anyways. So what's the better option? I'm not trying to muddy the waters here. I'm illustrating the point that there are no simple answers to some of these issues.

With these things being almost equal, it comes down to what has more value? Flying a 172 for 1,000 hours, or a 1900 for 1,000 hours?

Also, unless there is something in the numbers that I'm not understanding off of the GL website, and the discrepancy can be explained, let's stick with $33,800 as the starting salary vs $14,000, and make statements based on the $33,000.

 

[MikeD]

anteed monthly salary is based upon a 75 hour guarantee. Any Quick math says $33,800 gross. And it IS gross. I agree. But it's better than what a college graduate in a first job will make. As it should be. But how did the $14,000 number start, and where does that come from? Maybe the $33,800 is what I saw to make me think it might be a viable option. Any insight would be appreciated.

I don't know....I was going by the 14K figure presented here; I haven't checked on the actual.

Ok, Mike... What has changed? In what timeframe? Much has changed in the airline industry in the last 2 years, let alone 10. I'm looking at this from a dollars and cents, stabilty, revenue angle. The industry is in complete influx and has been relatively unstable since, well, I'm inclined to say 2001, but it was long before that.

Airline outsourcing of flying from mainline to regional has been a big part of it, among other problems. That, and guys willing to work for beans wages, just for the chance to fly a jet; and having no problem undercutting one another. The airline can pay next to nothing, and will still have a stack of resumes waiting.

As for the "idealistic ideas" that I have, they're really not all that idealistic. I will offer to help in anyway possible to create a better working environment for others. If I'm too green for that undertaking, well, than I'll be there for my own reasons, yes. If you're going to suggest that I have a poor self-worth because I'm willing to work for $33,800 annually, to create an opportunity down the road, I'll ask what having expenses of $12,000+ a month says about me.

It's very idealistic. What you're failing to understand is that working there (or places like it) at all is the problem. Places like that will not change because the supply of dimwit pilots will always be there. There's no need or requirement, in managements view, to change. Why should they? They have a ready and waiting force of suckers. By working at those places, pilots ARE the problem, as they keep those crappy places going and thriving by being the willing workforce for it. The overarching problem is, that's never going to change, because as much as pilots complain about it, they're the first to sell their souls and prostitute themselves out to places like these in order to get the opportunity to "live their dream."

As a CFI, I'll make $25 an hour. At $54,000 annually, I'll fall into a higher tax bracket and will net less than I would at GL. It's close, anyways. So what's the better option? I'm not trying to muddy the waters here. I'm illustrating the point that there are no simple answers to some of these issues.

With these things being almost equal, it comes down to what has more value? Flying a 172 for 1,000 hours, or a 1900 for 1,000 hours?

Also, unless there is something in the numbers that I'm not understanding off of the GL website, and the discrepancy can be explained, let's stick with $33,800 as the starting salary vs $14,000, and make statements based on the $33,000.

Of course there's no simple answers. You think you're the first one to have ever crossed this bridge? Im being facetious, but it's a double-edged sword. Management loves types like you (which, really, is everyone) because they know you need the quality time, and there's a ton of you available to choose from.........you croak, die, or quit; and there are 20 more salivating to take your spot, even for the piddly wages an QOL.

You ask about value. That depends what you value. More money and more opportunity because you have more to spend? Or less money, and being just another guy with 1000 hours of FO time? It's hard to say. It depends what you want.

 

[NickH]

There are a number of issues here... $14K comes from Great Lakes 1st year FO pay. $16 an hour for 75 hour a month, equals $14,400 a year.

$25 an hour as a new CFI is reasonable pay. to make $54,000 a year, you'd have to bill 180 hours a month. That's not likely as a CFI. Anticipate 100 hours a month on average, depending on where you are in the country. That's $30,000 a year.

Tax brackets don't work that way.

Now comes the longer term question. You need Turbine PIC time.

With Great Lakes, in four years, you could be a 1900 captain making $27,000 a year.

Work as a CFI for a couple of years, then go to AMF, fly a Chieftain, upgrade to a 99 in six months, then a 1900 in another year, and four years from now you'll be making $42,000 flying the same airplane. You'll have the same amount of TPIC and never have made less than $28,000 in a year. That's the worst-case scenario. Few people spend that long at AMF.

 

[MikeD]

Work as a CFI for a couple of years, then go to AMF, fly a Chieftain, upgrade to a 99 in six months, then a 1900 in another year, and four years from now you'll be making $42,000 flying the same airplane. You'll have the same amount of TPIC and never have made less than $28,000 in a year. That's the worst-case scenario. Few people spend that long at AMF.

The impression Im getting is that he's wanting to fast-track as quick as he can, going for quantity instead of quality; which is one way to do it, sure. At least thats the perception I get, and I could be wrong. The above you write here is a very viable method of going, one of a number of different options available in a career path; not to mention gaining good experience and airmanship along the way.

 

[NickH]

I booked a flight on Great Lakes a couple of hours ago. I hope their airmanship is fantastic!

 

[MikeD]

I booked a flight on Great Lakes a couple of hours ago. I hope their airmanship is fantastic!

Well, if not, it was nice knowing and conversing with you.

 

[GX]

There are a number of issues here... $14K comes from Great Lakes 1st year FO pay. $16 an hour for 75 hour a month, equals $14,400 a year.

$25 an hour as a new CFI is reasonable pay. to make $54,000 a year, you'd have to bill 180 hours a month. That's not likely as a CFI. Anticipate 100 hours a month on average, depending on where you are in the country. That's $30,000 a year.

Tax brackets don't work that way.

Now comes the longer term question. You need Turbine PIC time.

With Great Lakes, in four years, you could be a 1900 captain making $27,000 a year.

Work as a CFI for a couple of years, then go to AMF, fly a Chieftain, upgrade to a 99 in six months, then a 1900 in another year, and four years from now you'll be making $42,000 flying the same airplane. You'll have the same amount of TPIC and never have made less than $28,000 in a year. That's the worst-case scenario. Few people spend that long at AMF.

Great post. Makes sense. 75 hours a month is far different than 40 hours a week, which is what I was running numbers on. That clears up a lot. Does the contract specify working as a CFI in my off-time? I know with some airlines, it's a no-no. I'm in Phx, and have a guaranteed position at a pilot mill. Guys are working over 50 hours a week very regularly.

MikeD I'm wanting to put EVERY option on the table and evaluate all of them. I'm still too low time, and w/o the MEL to make any decisions today. There is no "fast-track" and I know that. But it's essential to weigh all options equally and do what makes most sense for me, my family, my business, and my flying career. I'd be foolish to not examine all of these options thoroughly.

 

[MikeD]

Great post. Makes sense. 75 hours a month is far different than 40 hours a week, which is what I was running numbers on. That clears up a lot. Does the contract specify working as a CFI in my off-time? I know with some airlines, it's a no-no. I'm in Phx, and have a guaranteed position at a pilot mill. Guys are working over 50 hours a week very regularly.

MikeD I'm wanting to put EVERY option on the table and evaluate all of them. I'm still too low time, and w/o the MEL to make any decisions today. There is no "fast-track" and I know that. But it's essential to weigh all options equally and do what makes most sense for me, my family, my business, and my flying career. I'd be foolish to not examine all of these options thoroughly.

There are all sorts of fast-tracks, actually.....well faster, at least. They're options, just not always the best options; since if they don't work for whatever reason, then you're kind of stuck and with few backup options....much like doubling-down in blackjack. No one is saying not to examine all options thoroughly, which is why I'm answering your questions for you at all. Do whatever you like, it makes no difference to me one way or another; just make sure you do it informed; which is what you appear to want to do. And thats good.

Which of the pilot mills are you at? Will let me know which airport to stay away from at peak times.........

 

[z987k]

75 is probably the guarantee every month. On reserve, you'll make just that. On the line, you might make a bit more depending on the airline. Some airlines pay overtime essentially after X hours a month. You'd have to look into all of that to get a picture of what you'll make. Chances are at lakes, you'll be off reserve a lot quicker. At that low of an hourly rate you'd have to fly A LOT to even break 20k though.
If you look into 121, or in this case 135 rest requirements, you'll see there's no possible way to fly 40 hours a week.

 

[GX]

MikeD

I'm at DVT. WestWind. I have an awesome instructor and like the school. There's a very diverse group of instructors; some very high time, career CFI's, some guys who have been furloughed, and are back CFI'ing, some guys who did all of their training somewhere else (ER, UND, FBO, etc.) and ended up at WestWind, and some guys who, like me, are GI Bill guys who went through the program and stayed as CFI's. It's been a great experience. They're put on notice that Homer Simpson is persona non gratis.

There are so many more thoughts that I have on the BK burger flipping topic, but we'll address those @ the M&G, in June. Fair?

I figure I'll be flying until I get grounded, so I'm not in any sort of real hurry. But I'd like to fly a big white shiny jet with purple letters on it at some point. Or do something in Corporate. That's my end goal. So, whatever I do to make that happen, I'd like it to be with intent and purposeful so that I maximize my ability, and my opportunities. At this point I'm not doing this for money, but I'd like to say that I do what I love, and make enough money to justify it, at some point. That too is the end goal. I've met a handful of guys who are able to fly airplanes and run businesses, run for office at the same time, so I don't think that's a stretch.

I worked the numbers incorrectly reference GL. If it's $14,000 a year to fly 75 hours a month, it's not even worth the time it takes to drive to the airport, let alone fly the airplane. Thanks for making sense out of the numbers, NickH.

Boris Badenov I'm not sure how I missed your comment, but I hope that the rest of the thread has helped you see that this was an exercise in weighing all available options. I'm highly concerned about my reputation in the industry. I'm an analyzer. I like to get input from people who are qualified to speak on an issue before committing to anything. I'm developing the next step for myself because I was focused on getting my Commercial prior to wanting to think about what comes next. Discussions like this help me get around guys who are highly qualified to speak on these things, and develop the picture for the next step.

To circle this back to the OP... The route to take for a low time guy like me, or him, is to CFI to 1,500 hours, look to jump in a right seat through networking to build some extra time, and find opportunities as they come along, and then apply to once I have 1,500 hours?