Who can you complain to...

cmill said:
Ughhh no kidding. I remember working for Martinaire and getting 17L. "DFW ground martex clear 17L, taxi from love field."

I could seriously go on an hour tirade about 17L. The only redeeming factor is that the tower is right there, and they usually let met know how my paint looked as i flew by on the DP. Other than that, i guess im lucky I was never keyed up when i got assigned that hell hole of a runway.
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Getting keyed up is pointless, unless you are being treated in a patently unfair fashion ("Regional Flight 3***, Houston Center roger, for sequence, maintain two five zero knots," three hundred miles away from the destination...and yes, this actually happened recently on a ship of this line...)
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Getting keyed up is pointless, unless you are being treated in a patently unfair fashion ("Regional Flight 3***, Houston Center roger, for sequence, maintain two five zero knots," three hundred miles away from the destination...and yes, this actually happened recently on a ship of this line...)
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Ahhh, i meant keyed up as in transmitting over the radio, which has happened to a guy I know who went on a F-bomb filled rant about what a pile the air plane we were flying was. When he was finally finished, regional appch just came back and said, "that sounds terrible, now tell your mx department that."
 
cmill said:
Ahhh, i meant keyed up as in transmitting over the radio, which has happened to a guy I know who went on a F-bomb filled rant about what a pile the air plane we were flying was. When he was finally finished, regional appch just came back and said, "that sounds terrible, now tell your mx department that."
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I should disambiguate "keyed up" from now on. Keyed up in one sense means pressing talk; keyed up in the other means getting all butthurt, and using the F-bomb. Which you don't want to do while you're keyed up.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I should disambiguate "keyed up" from now on. Keyed up in one sense means pressing talk; keyed up in the other means getting all butthurt, and using the F-bomb. Which you don't want to do while you're keyed up.
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"Yo dawg, we heard you like being keyed up, so we made you keyed up while you're keyed up, so now you can key up while you're keyed up."

But back to the OP: outside of emergencies or urgencies (or significant safety of flight concerns), fights with ATC usually aren't worth it. Almost every time ATC has been curt with me, it's been for understandable reasons--usually airspace congestion or some idiot pilot making a mess of the frequency (politeness still would have been better, of course). If you absolutely need to discuss a safety issue, though, ask for the current time and a phone number.

ATC is tough job, and our relationship with them is symbiotic. So if your controller is being a tool, but still getting the job done, cut 'em some slack. Consider it good karma for your inevitable upcoming bad day.
 
ILS37R said:
"Yo dawg, we heard you like being keyed up, so we made you keyed up while you're keyed up, so now you can key up while you're keyed up."
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Word up.

But back to the OP: outside of emergencies or urgencies (or significant safety of flight concerns), fights with ATC usually aren't worth it. Almost every time ATC has been curt with me, it's been for understandable reasons--usually airspace congestion or some idiot pilot making a mess of the frequency (politeness still would have been better, of course). If you absolutely need to discuss a safety issue, though, ask for the current time and a phone number.
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Or just say, "Hey we just got an RA off that mapping airplane..."
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Or just say, "Hey we just got an RA off that mapping airplane..."
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Why does it feel like it's either that or traffic calls for planes 10 miles distant, 5000 feet higher, climbing, and flying away?

Being in the business of making ATC's life difficult grants certain perspective.

Er... I mean... "I'm sure I have no idea what you're talking about."
 
ILS37R said:
Why does it feel like it's either that or traffic calls for planes 10 miles distant, 5000 feet higher, climbing, and flying away?

Being in the business of making ATC's life difficult grants certain perspective.

Er... I mean... "I'm sure I have no idea what you're talking about."
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If you all wind up in DFW or JFK-area anytime soon, we'll have to come up on fingers and discuss a few things. :)
 
ILS37R said:
ATC is tough job, and our relationship with them is symbiotic. So if your controller is being a tool, but still getting the job done, cut 'em some slack. Consider it good karma for your inevitable upcoming bad day.
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You're right. As humans (particularly in our profession), it can be difficult when our egos or pride is being messed with. However, taking the high road, as it were, is usually the best outcome unless it directly deals with what you have to do.
 
WestIndian425 said:
You're right. As humans (particularly in our profession), it can be difficult when our egos or pride is being messed with. However, taking the high road, as it were, is usually the best outcome unless it directly deals with what you have to do.
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FWIW I know I've unfairly snapped at pilots because I had something going on that wasn't their fault. Its very rare, but it happens. Later on when things settle down I always regret it. The problem is normally inherent to how many frequencies I might have going at once or abnormal situations you aren't aware of. At times its like carrying on 10 different normal conversations while dealing with the guy that just kicked your dog and keyed your car, only the other people only hear whats addressed to them.

As a normal human it is VERY hard to scan to the next target who isn't causing the problem and one second after totally change inflection and attitude. We've all seen the TV show or movie plot where the stressed out mom is dressing down the bad kid for breaking something while the cute one comes up and asks a question only to get snapped at by the now infuriated mother through no fault of their own. Its a little like that, and no, I'm not insinuating pilots are children.

If it was totally directed at you for no reason however, yeah, ask for the number. If they won't give it to you, or stonewall, ask the next sector, approach or tower, they'll have it.
 
Houston said:
Ask for the controller's initials and ask them to mark the tape.
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they dont need to "mark the tape" everything is recorded, you just need the time and what frequency you were on. your best bet is to just ask for a phone number to the facility. in a professional manner. if they dont want to give it you, then it is not hard at all to find a number to any faa facility on the internet.
 
thesoonerkid said:
they dont need to "mark the tape" everything is recorded, you just need the time and what frequency you were on. your best bet is to just ask for a phone number to the facility. in a professional manner. if they dont want to give it you, then it is not hard at all to find a number to any faa facility on the internet.
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I thought that made it easier for the QA guy to find the right spot.
 
no sir, ive never heard of having us "mark the tape" as far as im concerned its marked anytime we key up
 
Well, marking the tapes is an outdated practice, as if we use tape anymore. But yeah, if you have a problem with a controller and are unable to get the number while on the current freq, ask the next freq down the road, they can get it for you.
 
In my previous job, I was literally taken off the common TRACON frequency to speak one on one with some grump about our operation. We had at least 500' (usually 1000') vertical separation from the arrivals and they were still giving us a hard time - after we had precleared the operation with the TRACON supervisor...

That's pretty much the worst I'd ever been treated.
 
"Marking the tape" as Sunburn stated is antiquated and refers to a time when actual recording tape as opposed to digital recorders were used. It was an actual physical "marking" of the tape reel that denoted the general area of the recording in question as one section of the tape looked no different then the next. Now with digital recording simply noting the date, time, and the frequency will yield the same results even a year or more from now. Everything we say is recorded, they even have ways to record our conversions off frequency if we have our headsets on much like CVRs (they won't admit it but it is there, a little tech ops birdy told me)

Houston
thesoonerkid
 
Autothrust Blue said:
In my previous job, I was literally taken off the common TRACON frequency to speak one on one with some grump about our operation. We had at least 500' (usually 1000') vertical separation from the arrivals and they were still giving us a hard time - after we had precleared the operation with the TRACON supervisor...

That's pretty much the worst I'd ever been treated.
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Let me guess...DFW mapping job? I was there for 2 months a long time ago and had to deal with "grumpy". That is where I grew up, and my parents still live there, and I was so glad to leave that area during that job...
 
Stone Cold said:
Let me guess...DFW mapping job? I was there for 2 months a long time ago and had to deal with "grumpy". That is where I grew up, and my parents still live there, and I was so glad to leave that area during that job...
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Get this: Nashville...

I deal with Regional every day now and considering the traffic volume they're very reasonable. Much less touchy than their Chicago or NYC counterparts.
 
Short of trying to fly me in to a mountain, I have a hard time figuring what ATC could do to make me mad enough to get MY (numerous) shortcomings put under the microscope in repayment. I've dealt with some "attitude-challenged" controllers (Hi, New York Approach!), but they're just as crappy to everyone else as they are to me. And though it sticks in my craw to say it about New York Approach (I do really hate that place), they're almost always obviously vastly overworked and trying to hold it together in the face of overwhelming odds. Cooperate and Graduate.
 
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