Non-revs in Business/First

[Alchemy]

Rumor has it that in the last contract negotiation, the union had the choice between business class or better on all non-domestic US commercial travel but with 1/3 pay OR 100% deadhead pay. We took 1/3 pay for deadheads with biz or better . Sure I'd prefer to have the pay too, but you'd have to pry the biz or better clause out of my cold, dead hands.

 

[derg]

The guy over there with the hot dog is probably being rewarded for:

a. Overtime
b. Longevity with the company
c. Vacation
d. Customer Appreciation
e. Reliability

Or:

1. Deadheading to an assignent
2. Company business

etc...

Or it might be part of his negotiated benefits package.

You have to take care of your customers AND your stakeholders in the company. If you buy an upgradeable fare and have the loyalty to the company, you're going to be upgraded.

Have you company purchase the more expensive upgradeable fare or a first class ticket. But if you're flying to go cover an assignment and your company doesn't care about your comfort by buying you a first class ticket and sticking you in coach, shooooooooot man, I don't think I should deadhead in coach when I'm off to cover an assignment to make my company sweet sweet lucre when you're deadheading in coach to fly a leg you're potentially competing with us on!

Get that in the contract, stat!

 

[MikeD]

The guy over there with the hot dog is probably being rewarded for:

a. Overtime
b. Longevity with the company
c. Vacation
d. Customer Appreciation
e. Reliability

Or:

1. Deadheading to an assignent
2. Company business

etc...

Or it might be part of his negotiated benefits package.

Although sometimes, it's like the other side of the spectrum:

"Why am I paying $18.99 for a plain hotdog, when its really the same hotdog that Circle K is selling for $1.00?"

 

[derg]

Although sometimes, it's like the other side of the spectrum:

"Why am I paying $18.99 for a plain hotdog, when its really the same hotdog that Circle K is selling for $1.00?"

Because, here at "Lukes of Chicago", you're not going to get stabbed in the parking lot like you would coming out of a "Circle K" on Baseline.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Naw see, the situation is "I paid $1.49 for a plain hotdog, but you just gave that guy over there the hotdog and all the fixings for free!" See what I'm saying?

Again, I don't expect upgrades. I don't pay for my tickets, and business class isn't in our contract. I don't even ask on international segments. But wouldn't it be better for business to take care of the people who pay your bills first?

I would argue that it's better to take care of the people who take care of the people who pay your bills. I think a lot of us would go the extra mile for the company if we thought the company would do the same for us.

Exhibit a) southwest: makes money hand over fist despite basically being no frills.

I know you are talking about traveling on other airlines too and being upgraded. But that is just how Dough explained it. This is a unique industry that people don't understand unless they've been there. Upgrading someone from another airline is like saying "yes, I know...screwed up eh? Grab a seat and relax for a while!"

Look out for your own. Nobody else is.

 

[dasleben]

Good points, but I want to be very clear that I'm not referring to myself. We don't have it in our contract; our contract sucks, but what else is new?

I suppose my point in this thread is that this seems like yet another way the airlines don't take care of their passengers first. Many airline employees treat passengers as steerage, a necessary evil, rather than valued customers who are keeping them employed. Perhaps business would be a little better if customers were treated as more than cattle getting on the bus? This stems from the top down, with upper management treating employees like whipping boys, and in turn, how customers are treated by front-line employees. Where are the perks to being a loyal customer, when some unprofessional supplemental pilot with a leather jacket and no hat can sit up in business for free?

 

[Chief Captain]

I don't see your problem. The airline has a benefits package that includes premium class travel IF no revenue pax are in the seats. Are you saying that you'd rather them give the free upgrade to an econ pax, than to the men and women that make up the airline?

 

[Alchemy]

Good old Continental never let jumpseaters in biz/first. Nevah . As I'm sure you remember, the only way you were getting up there was on a vacation pass or if you paid the $100/$200 to upgrade to 1st on a regular employee pass. Of course, this made it no easier for an elite frequent flier to get up there....I don't remember what CAL's policy was but with UAL now I think it takes something like a 150,000 mileage dump plus Chairman's 1K status to swing an upgrade from coach to biz on an internatinal leg.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Good old Continental never let jumpseaters in biz/first. Nevah . As I'm sure you remember, the only way you were getting up there was on a vacation pass or if you paid the $100/$200 to upgrade to 1st on a regular employee pass. Of course, this made it no easier for an elite frequent flier to get up there....I don't remember what CAL's policy was but with UAL now I think it takes something like a 150,000 mileage dump plus Chairman's 1K status to swing an upgrade from coach to biz on an internatinal leg.

NW was like that but all but once after checking in up front I was seated in a nice comfy biz seat.

 

[dasleben]

I don't see your problem. The airline has a benefits package that includes premium class travel IF no revenue pax are in the seats. Are you saying that you'd rather them give the free upgrade to an econ pax, than to the men and women that make up the airline?

I don't make up the airline; if I show up at a Delta counter, I'm just a mooch who occasionally competes for government contracts with them. I'd still get put in business. Currently employee and non-employee jumpseaters are allowed business class access, and customers still hate traveling. Why not focus on the customer?

Alchemy: I do remember that, vividly! The senior on a Berlin-EWR leg I jumpseated on once argued with the CA to keep me out of business. I certainly have no issues with employees getting vacation passes, but anyone with a badge and uniform getting first crack at it when there are loyal customers in coach doesn't seem right to me.

 

[jrh]

This all sounds more complicated than it ought to be.

I see it as, "a seat is open, so I take it." Simple as that. It's a professional courtesy. I don't know or care what revenue pax are paying for their seat, or how loyal they are. I don't know or care how efficient or inefficient the company is, or how much profit could be made by utilizing the seat I'm in differently. It's not my problem. All I know is that my company will give away empty seats to nonrevs, therefore I don't feel guilty about using empty seats on another carrier.

I also don't care where I sit. I've ridden in First on several occasions. But I've also been in a middle seat on an Alaska 737 doing the six hour ANC-ORD redeye. Or on the second cockpit jumpseat in an SWA 737, practically straddling the captain's shoulders.

To me, a seat's a seat. It gets me from Point A to Point B. Sometimes I get lucky, sometimes not. Try not to overthink it.

 

[dasleben]

I don't know or care what revenue pax are paying for their seat, or how loyal they are. I don't know or care how efficient or inefficient the company is, or how much profit could be made by utilizing the seat I'm in differently. It's not my problem.

Step back, and you'll see that this outlook is very pervasive in the airline industry. It's a problem.

 

[B767]

Meh, I work for a broke-ass company. I expect the cheap seats when I non-rev.

 

[jrh]

Step back, and you'll see that this outlook is very pervasive in the airline industry. It's a problem.

Well, a couple things. First, that's my personality for many issues in life. It's not limited to this industry.

Second, it might be a problem, but I think it's the natural result of things being ridiculously complicated. I'd care more if it was a simple "Pay X dollars to sit in coach, pay X+100 dollars to sit in First." Period. That's it.

But I can't even begin to make sense out of how things are organized. To take that a step further, I don't have a clue what a fair way to upgrade people would be, because there are so many factors. What is the exit row worth? What is the front of the plane worth, versus the back? What are the window, middle, and aisle seats worth, relative to each other? What is loyalty worth for a passenger who flies twice a year for five years, versus ten times in one year? Why do ticket prices change based on when the ticket is purchased?

I happen to ride on American a lot, making the STL-ORD and ORD-STL commute. During boarding, it seems like they call out a half dozen different classes of travelers that I can't even remember...Select First, Priority Access, Elite Medallion Gold Business Sky Warrior Super Traveler....blah, blah, blah...and it makes me wonder what a person has to do to get into each group, and what's so special about being in that group...because an hour from now, we're all going to end up in Chicago.

It'll drive a guy nuts to try figuring it out. My job is to fly the plane, so I do the best I can with that. When I jumpseat places, tell me where to sit and I'll sit there.

 

[dasleben]

Well, a couple things. First, that's my personality for many issues in life. It's not limited to this industry.

Second, it might be a problem, but I think it's the natural result of things being ridiculously complicated. I'd care more if it was a simple "Pay X dollars to sit in coach, pay X+100 dollars to sit in First." Period. That's it.

But I can't even begin to make sense out of how things are organized. To take that a step further, I don't have a clue what a fair way to upgrade people would be, because there are so many factors. What is the exit row worth? What is the front of the plane worth, versus the back? What are the window, middle, and aisle seats worth, relative to each other? What is loyalty worth for a passenger who flies twice a year for five years, versus ten times in one year? Why do ticket prices change based on when the ticket is purchased?

I happen to ride on American a lot, making the STL-ORD and ORD-STL commute. During boarding, it seems like they call out a half dozen different classes of travelers that I can't even remember...Select First, Priority Access, Elite Medallion Gold Business Sky Warrior Super Traveler....blah, blah, blah...and it makes me wonder what a person has to do to get into each group, and what's so special about being in that group...because an hour from now, we're all going to end up in Chicago.

It'll drive a guy nuts to try figuring it out. My job is to fly the plane, so I do the best I can with that. When I jumpseat places, tell me where to sit and I'll sit there.

ORD-STL isn't a long flight, and not really what I see an issue with. Domestic upgrades are widely available; it's the 14 hour EWR-NRT leg that departs with frequent flyer revenue passengers in coach, with a non-company pilot seated comfortably in business without paying a dime. Status means very little on those flights, with the exception of access to United's Economy Plus, and a better boarding group.

Again, why not take care of your passengers first, if there are unbooked seats in business?

 

[Chief Captain]

I agree that customer service is of the utmost importance, but your argument is confusing. The airline has fewer seats in business/first for a reason- they charge more for those seats. Why would they simply give away those seats for the price of an econ seat? If you want a premium seat, you pay for it. It's that simple.

 

[dasleben]

I agree that customer service is of the utmost importance, but your argument is confusing. The airline has fewer seats in business/first for a reason- they charge more for those seats. Why would they simply give away those seats for the price of an econ seat? If you want a premium seat, you pay for it. It's that simple.

I think I'm being pretty clear, but I'll spell it out: I'm talking about upgrades for rewarding your frequent customers, and provide an incentive for repeat business. Putting even non-employee jumpseaters in those seats instead of loyal passengers seems a little counterproductive, no?

 

[ChasenSFO]

If you have the miles to earn the first class or buisness class upgrade, then you've earned the seat fare and square, and by all means take it. I've earned that seat by putting up with the daily BS getting planes in and out of my gate for the past 4 years. I wouldn't work for an airline like Virgin America who doesn't think their employees are worthy of first class(at least in a non-flying position).

I'm against comp upgrades to anyone who isn't a 75,000+ mile frequent flyer. Pre-merger, United was upgrading ANYONE who flew on 20 United or Star Alliance flights in the last 12 months or 20,000 miles. A bunch of my friends who almost never travel were Premier status on United just because they'd do a 2 leg Asia flight like SFO-HKG-SGN twice a year and maybe do LAX-SFO 3 times a year to go to/from school, and United just happened to have the cheapest fare for those routes. There is no loyalty, so why should they be thrown upfront with the people who actually make it a point to give their buisness to United and the Star Alliance? As a gate agent boarding a CRJ-700 with 6 first and 60 coach seats on a 25 minute flight to Reno, I'd often see 25+ people on the upgrade list. Airbus's going to LAX with either 8 or 12 first class seats would often have 50+ people on the upgrade list. Even if you're in the top 3 or 4 names on that list, how appreciated can you possibly feel knowing that if you weren't there for the upgrade, the 19 year old kid on the list behind you who flew BOS-SFO-CIC 4 times in the last 12 months to/from school would get it and not even care?

I say let the very high status fliers get comp upgrades, and anyone else has to buy a ticket or fork over miles for the upgrade. Otherwise, unless a non-rev wants it, let the seat go out empty, no one earned it.

 

[dasleben]

If you have the miles to earn the first class or buisness class upgrade, then you've earned the seat fare and square, and by all means take it. I've earned that seat by putting up with the daily BS getting planes in and out of my gate for the past 4 years. I wouldn't work for an airline like Virgin America who doesn't think their employees are worthy of first class(at least in a non-flying position).

I'm against comp upgrades to anyone who isn't a 75,000+ mile frequent flyer. Pre-merger, United was upgrading ANYONE who flew on 20 United or Star Alliance flights in the last 12 months or 20,000 miles. A bunch of my friends who almost never travel were Premier status on United just because they'd do a 2 leg Asia flight like SFO-HKG-SGN twice a year and maybe do LAX-SFO 3 times a year to go to/from school, and United just happened to have the cheapest fare for those routes. There is no loyalty, so why should they be thrown upfront with the people who actually make it a point to give their buisness to United and the Star Alliance? As a gate agent boarding a CRJ-700 with 6 first and 60 coach seats on a 25 minute flight to Reno, I'd often see 25+ people on the upgrade list. Airbus's going to LAX with either 8 or 12 first class seats would often have 50+ people on the upgrade list. Even if you're in the top 3 or 4 names on that list, how appreciated can you possibly feel knowing that if you weren't there for the upgrade, the 19 year old kid on the list behind you who flew BOS-SFO-CIC 4 times in the last 12 months to/from school would get it and not even care?

I say let the very high status fliers get comp upgrades, and anyone else has to buy a ticket or fork over miles for the upgrade.

Like I said, domestic upgrades are extremely common. Why not provide your customers the same courtesy on a longhaul route?

 

[Alchemy]

If you have the miles to earn the first class or buisness class upgrade, then you've earned the seat fare and square, and by all means take it. I've earned that seat by putting up with the daily BS getting planes in and out of my gate for the past 4 years. I wouldn't work for an airline like Virgin America who doesn't think their employees are worthy of first class(at least in a non-flying position).

I'm against comp upgrades to anyone who isn't a 75,000+ mile frequent flyer. Pre-merger, United was upgrading ANYONE who flew on 20 United or Star Alliance flights in the last 12 months or 20,000 miles. A bunch of my friends who almost never travel were Premier status on United just because they'd do a 2 leg Asia flight like SFO-HKG-SGN twice a year and maybe do LAX-SFO 3 times a year to go to/from school, and United just happened to have the cheapest fare for those routes. There is no loyalty, so why should they be thrown upfront with the people who actually make it a point to give their buisness to United and the Star Alliance? As a gate agent boarding a CRJ-700 with 6 first and 60 coach seats on a 25 minute flight to Reno, I'd often see 25+ people on the upgrade list. Airbus's going to LAX with either 8 or 12 first class seats would often have 50+ people on the upgrade list. Even if you're in the top 3 or 4 names on that list, how appreciated can you possibly feel knowing that if you weren't there for the upgrade, the 19 year old kid on the list behind you who flew BOS-SFO-CIC 4 times in the last 12 months to/from school would get it and not even care?

I say let the very high status fliers get comp upgrades, and anyone else has to buy a ticket or fork over miles for the upgrade. Otherwise, unless a non-rev wants it, let the seat go out empty, no one earned it.

I don't know about 75k for the threshold, that's a lot of flying.

25k seems fair to at least get on the list, granted a Mileage Plus silver probably isn't ever going to upgrade unless the flight was half empty anyway. Personally, I go out of my way to fly United since I'm doing well in their frequent flier program. I decided to do United this year since I had an 11,000 mile flight with them on January 1st. I think the FF programs work in securing customer loyalty, at least over the short term.

With that said, I have to choose the flight that's within $100 of the cheapest fare when I travel, so I do still end up on USAirways quite often. Luckily it's all star alliance.