Non-revs in Business/First

dasleben said:
Like I said, domestic upgrades are extremely common. Why not provide your customers the same courtesy on a longhaul route?
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Because domestic flights in the US have already become a bus service, and international isn't that far away. Step one would be the upgrades. Let's save some dignity of what little is left.
 
dasleben said:
Like I said, domestic upgrades are extremely common. Why not provide your customers the same courtesy on a longhaul route?
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Because look at the difference between a coach seat and a first class seat on a domestically configured aircraft. The pitch is a few inches more, the recline is very very slightly better, the seat is a bit wider, and they give you free alcohol and maybe a meal if the flight is at the right time and long enough.

The difference between the same coach seat and a business or first class seat on an internationally configured aircraft is like night and day. The seat itself is tens of thousands of dollars, it takes much more space on the floorplan, and it results in a completely different experience to the customer: the ability to actually sleep and wake up when you are ready to wake up, instead of when you get uncomfortable.

It is a different product entirely, not merely a slightly better chair. Thus, it should not be given away to frequent flyers with a paltry amount of miles in their account built up over just a year or two. It should barely even be available for the ones with hundreds of thousands of miles. Those who want it can buy it.
 
Nick said:
It is a different product entirely, not merely a slightly better chair. Thus, it should not be given away to frequent flyers with a paltry amount of miles in their account built up over just a year or two. It should barely even be available for the ones with hundreds of thousands of miles. Those who want it can buy it.
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But it's given away freely to anyone with a badge. Do you see my point? :)
 
I dunno...if you work as a cook at a five star restaurant, it's pretty easy to eat gourmet food.

If you work for Verizon, it's pretty easy to get the latest and greatest cell phone.

If you work at a casino in Vegas, I bet you could catch a lot of free shows.

If you work for an airline, sometimes you get to fly in luxury.

Just because an employee is taking advantage of a perk doesn't mean a customer is being mistreated. It's just the way the system works.
 
dasleben said:
But it's given away freely to anyone with a badge. Do you see my point? :)
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Because at Delta, they would rather see an employee in in an open Biz Elite seat than cheapen the product by allowing international coach upgrades. Sure, someone may have paid 2 large for a seat in back, but the walk up BE seat goes for 10-15 large and they don't want a cheap seater sitting next to Daddy Warbucks. There is a world of difference between domestic FC and international BE. That is why you can buy an upgrade at the gate for $75 on a domestic flight, but not international.
 
dasleben said:
But it's given away freely to anyone with a badge. Do you see my point? :)
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No, I don't really see your point. Or, I see it, but certainly don't agree with it.

I like jrh's examples.

A worker getting a perk does not mean that a customer is being mistreated.
 
I find it rather funny (and telling) that so many airline pilots are arguing against the idea of passengers having extra benefits for returning business. Protect the perks, damn the customer. I do buy the argument that it's a different level of service on an international segment, but let's face it: The current American airline system is broken. People in this country hate flying. I've ridden on a wide range of international carriers, and almost all absolutely embarrass American carriers when it comes to customer service. I'm not talking about inflight amenities, though those are often better; simply, you're treated like a valued customer, rather than cattle getting on a bus. No rude, bitter FAs, no pilots failing to make even a single PA. It's a culture issue that we're falling way behind on.
 
dasleben said:
But it's given away freely to anyone with a badge. Do you see my point? :)
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Well, there's CASS where you're verified against your passport, an approved jumpseat list, priority within those groups and professional courtesy.

Certainly not just anyone.
 
Simply they want people to pony up for the money. FC domestically is basically all filled with mileage customers and free giveaways. When people start to expect their status to upgrade them intl as well theyll stop buying the intl FC ticket.

Why give it to nonrevs? SOme airlines still charge their employees to ride first. United makes you pay for the upgrade so their meal charges and alcohol are all covered by an employee. #2 its a nice perk and keeps employees happier. (Seeing Buddy passes up there makes less sense of course, especially when they are out of dress code, but thats another story).
 
If it didn't violate some kind of RICO statute the airlines should sell raffle tickets for those empty seats at the gate. Winning tickets get a seat, losing tickets get two bucks off a beer onboard.
 
dasleben said:
I find it rather funny (and telling) that so many airline pilots are arguing against the idea of passengers having extra benefits for returning business. Protect the perks, damn the customer. I do buy the argument that it's a different level of service on an international segment, but let's face it: The current American airline system is broken. People in this country hate flying. I've ridden on a wide range of international carriers, and almost all absolutely embarrass American carriers when it comes to customer service. I'm not talking about inflight amenities, though those are often better; simply, you're treated like a valued customer, rather than cattle getting on a bus. No rude, bitter FAs, no pilots failing to make even a single PA. It's a culture issue that we're falling way behind on.
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So is mr free market über alles admitting that maybe state supported airlines might be better?
 
dasleben said:
I find it rather funny (and telling) that so many airline pilots are arguing against the idea of passengers having extra benefits for returning business. Protect the perks, damn the customer. I do buy the argument that it's a different level of service on an international segment, but let's face it: The current American airline system is broken. People in this country hate flying. I've ridden on a wide range of international carriers, and almost all absolutely embarrass American carriers when it comes to customer service. I'm not talking about inflight amenities, though those are often better; simply, you're treated like a valued customer, rather than cattle getting on a bus. No rude, bitter FAs, no pilots failing to make even a single PA. It's a culture issue that we're falling way behind on.
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Yes, I agree with those things you say about the foreign carriers, but it still has nothing to do with Delta/United/American/USAir/etc. allowing non-revs in business class. These are two totally separate topics.

I don't see how it is telling that many airline pilots are arguing against handing out business class seats like candy. It is not the same product as economy; it should therefore be purchased and only the very very top of the list frequent flyers should be able to get one of those seats at no cost.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
So is mr free market über alles admitting that maybe state supported airlines might be better?
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Some are better from a customer standpoint, but that's not the issue at hand (Some are worse...flown Aer Lingus domestic or Bulgaria Air recently? Woof.) The issue is cultural, and yes, also applies to things like perks for returning customers.

By the way, even foreign airlines that aren't supported by governments have better customer service. :)
 
I think exclusivity and brand preservation has something to do with it as well. Additionally, if international upgrades were easily attainable then why buy that 2-3 x more expensive seat on travelocity when an upgrade could be purchased for less than half the cost of that original coach seat at the gate. I'm sure the metrics have been analyzed many times over...

(To the OP- As a fellow redtail, stop stirring the pot ;) )
 
dasleben said:
Some are better from a customer standpoint, but that's not the issue at hand (Some are worse...flown Aer Lingus domestic or Bulgaria Air recently? Woof.) The issue is cultural, and yes, also applies to things like perks for returning customers.

By the way, even foreign airlines that aren't supported by governments have better customer service. :)
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I thought Aer Lingus' product was pretty good "domestically". Flown a few Euro carriers and it seemed in line with theirs.
 
1. As pilots, our career has been degraded so much, that the premium class travel is something that I'll never see anything wrong with. That's the selfish part of my viewpoint.

2. As pax, if you want premium class, PAY for it. What entitles you to the first class service when you only paid the econ seat? That would be bad business, because nobody would pay for the first class seat.

3. Don't compare international long haul to domestic. 2 different animals.
 
Chief Captain said:
1. As pilots, our career has been degraded so much, that the premium class travel is something that I'll never see anything wrong with. That's the selfish part of my viewpoint.

2. As pax, if you want premium class, PAY for it. What entitles you to the first class service when you only paid the econ seat? That would be bad business, because nobody would pay for the first class seat.

3. Don't compare international long haul to domestic. 2 different animals.
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Wow, I'm glad we have a Chief Captain in our midst to spell it out so clearly for me. ;)
 
Continental called it "protecting the product". Same as the others have said, if economy passengers were to be upgraded with status, no one would ever purchase the business class fares. dasleben mentioned FlyerTalk and that is the reason why status will never get intn'l upgrades. The folks on there have all kinds of mileage schemes going. If they want the upgrade they can pay in cash or USE those precious miles. As we all know, the money on international flights is made in the front of the aircraft and the belly.
 
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