Virgin America

You could make the requirement anything. What if today it's 1,000 hours of TPIC, but tomorrow in order to move on you need to have a masters degree AND 3,000 TPIC to get a look at a regional?

Don't try to make bets on a moving target. If you get offered a job somewhere that you want to go to, then go. If Doug had waited to leave for mainline until he had 1,000 TPIC he could well have ended up on the street where ever he ended up. I mean it's a great academic discussion to have, but that's all this is. You can bet your ass that if Delta calls tomorrow and says, "We want to put you in class" I'm going.
 
kellwolf said:
Another thing I'm not a big fan of at Virgin is when you upgrade to CA their pay scale is different than everyone else. If you're a 4 year FO that upgrades, you won't go to 4 year CA pay, you go to FIRST year CA pay and work your way back up.
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I've heard that is not the case anymore.
 
jtrain609 said:
You could make the requirement anything. What if today it's 1,000 hours of TPIC, but tomorrow in order to move on you need to have a masters degree AND 3,000 TPIC to get a look at a regional?

Don't try to make bets on a moving target. If you get offered a job somewhere that you want to go to, then go. If Doug had waited to leave for mainline until he had 1,000 TPIC he could well have ended up on the street where ever he ended up. I mean it's a great academic discussion to have, but that's all this is. You can bet your ass that if Delta calls tomorrow and says, "We want to put you in class" I'm going.
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I agree, I used fly with so many people who had just upgraded around 2003 when jet blue and aitrain were trying to take anyone they could. Some thought the same thing about jet blue that some think about VX. They had interviews they turned down to get 1000 pic and decided to wait for Fedex or united to call and ended up passing up an opportunity. Fast forward 9 years and these same guys are kicking themselves that they didn't go to jetblue. One guy I knew commuted from LA to ORD and barely held a line he said if he had gone to jetblue back in 03/04 he would be a captain in LGB and able to drive to work.

Even if the worst case scenario happens and you get sent back to the street what have you really given up at your respective regional?
 
skyw82 said:
I agree, I used fly with so many people who had just upgraded around 2003 when jet blue and aitrain were trying to take anyone they could. Some thought the same thing about jet blue that some think about VX. They had interviews they turned down to get 1000 pic and decided to wait for Fedex or united to call and ended up passing up an opportunity. Fast forward 9 years and these same guys are kicking themselves that they didn't go to jetblue. One guy I knew commuted from LA to ORD and barely held a line he said if he had gone to jetblue back in 03/04 he would be a captain in LGB and able to drive to work.

Even if the worst case scenario happens and you get sent back to the street what have you really given up at your respective regional?
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Exactly. I don't know why pilots think like this, to tell you the truth. We think we're logbooks, not people. We have a real hard time accepting that airlines hire people, not logbooks. There's not a person I'm going to school with right now who would turn down a job offer at a firm that wanted to pay them tons of money because they wanted to hold off and get their LLM, just in case, so they're more marketable during a downturn.

The way you insulate yourself for the downturn is not by making yourself more competitive for a hiring field that you can't guess the competitive minimums for, you insulate yourself by gaining seniority at a place you want to be.
 
jtrain609 said:
Exactly. I don't know why pilots think like this, to tell you the truth. We think we're logbooks, not people. We have a real hard time accepting that airlines hire people, not logbooks. There's not a person I'm going to school with right now who would turn down a job offer at a firm that wanted to pay them tons of money because they wanted to hold off and get their LLM, just in case, so they're more marketable during a downturn.

The way you insulate yourself for the downturn is not by making yourself more competitive for a hiring field that you can't guess the competitive minimums for, you insulate yourself by gaining seniority at a place you want to be.
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I don't know why people think like this either, I know of a few guys who have passed up Jetblue/Atlas/Spirit/Allegiant/etc....to wait for Southwest.......5 years later they are still in the same place they were, but had they left (in some cases) they would have been a jr ca. No doubt it is a little unnerving to leave without the "magical 1000 pic" I did and everyone once and a while I think about it and of course I'll be happier when I make ca and get the extra 200 (just in case). I think the biggest reason people think like this (at least I do) is because if for some reason I end up on the street, now I can't even apply to places like swa or fedex, thats the biggest concern about the 1000 hours for me. That being said I have been at the new place for almost a year, and I have about 40 people under me now, out of about 350 or so pilots thats not too bad, and offers me a little protection, should it (god forbid) be necessary.
 
People think like this because we've been around long enough to see that it's important. Many of us were in this industry immediately after 9/11, and we saw how the guys suffered who left their regional for mainline before getting their PIC time, and ended up getting furloughed. A lot of those guys ended up being my FOs on the CRJ. Mainline Northwest pilots, sitting right seat for a 24-year old captain who just upgraded, and they have zero chance of leaving to go anywhere decent because they still need their PIC time. Don't make the same mistake, especially for a company as shaky as Virgin.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
People think like this because we've been around long enough to see that it's important. Many of us were in this industry immediately after 9/11, and we saw how the guys suffered who left their regional for mainline before getting their PIC time, and ended up getting furloughed. A lot of those guys ended up being my FOs on the CRJ. Mainline Northwest pilots, sitting right seat for a 24-year old captain who just upgraded, and they have zero chance of leaving to go anywhere decent because they still need their PIC time. Don't make the same mistake, especially for a company as shaky as Virgin.
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I got hired at XJT in feb of 2001, so you can guess what happened to me after 9/11. While leaving without the 1000pic works for me it may not work for everyone. I personally left because my thought was "Is it worth it to me to have the 200 pic hours if that means staying where I am for the rest of my career and never moving on." To me it wasn't....to others maybe it is. Every move you make in this industry is a calculated risk. My neighbor who is an old TWA guy (before the AA debacle) said "The only day you know if you picked the right airlines is the day you retire."
 
ATN_Pilot said:
we saw how the guys suffered who left their regional for mainline before getting their PIC time, and ended up getting furloughed.
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What has two thumbs and did this? This guy.

For AirTran. I'd be sitting pretty had I gone back to AirTran after the furlough but I've been Monday morning quarterbacking that choice for a decade.

I agree with ATN_pilot. Don't do it.
 
I think it really depends on if you think it's your final destination.

If you're thinking of spring-boarding somewhere else, I'd give it some deep thought.

If you're confident it's your last career move, jump on it.

Like I have 14,000-something hours, heavy jet time, but I don't have a snowballs chance of meeting FDX or UPS's minimums if the big Southern ship hits the rocks and the captain fell into a lifeboat.
 
Doug Taylor said:
I think it really depends on if you think it's your final destination.

If you're thinking of spring-boarding somewhere else, I'd give it some deep thought.

If you're confident it's your last career move, jump on it.
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I am also living proof that this doesn't work. I'm like the airline version of that "Mayhem" guy from the insurance ads.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
I am also living proof that this doesn't work. I'm like the airline version of that "Mayhem" guy from the insurance ads.
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True!

I don't want to sound like an arrogant ass, but my decision to leave SYX for Southernjets with a pittance of PIC turbine ≠ leaving a regional with minimal PIC for Virgin.

aaaaaaaaaand here comes the haterade, but I'm honey badger! :)
 
Doug Taylor said:
I think it really depends on if you think it's your final destination.

If you're thinking of spring-boarding somewhere else, I'd give it some deep thought.

If you're confident it's your last career move, jump on it.

Like I have 14,000-something hours, heavy jet time, but I don't have a snowballs chance of meeting FDX or UPS's minimums if the big Southern ship hits the rocks and the captain fell into a lifeboat.
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Here's the problem with that logic, though; nobody is going to have a chance at those jobs.

If things hit the fan to the point that YOU are on the street, NEITHER of us is getting a job flying airplanes, because it means something so catastrophic has happened to as to flood the street with 7,000 Delta pilots. 1,000 hours of TPIC? We're going to see guys with Space Shuttle time getting turned down for jobs at that point.

There are examples of this, too. In the furloughs after 9/11, NOBODY could find work. If you had a job, great, but it's not like all the guys at United that got canned said, "Oh, hey, this is ok, I'll just take my 20 years of military flying over to Southwest here, who is obviously weathering THIS storm JUST FINE!" Those cats got dumped on the street just like everybody else.

If we get to that point, I'm going to be practicing law, and you're going to be my paralegal.
 
Doug Taylor said:
True!

I don't want to sound like an arrogant ass, but my decision to leave SYX for Southernjets with a pittance of PIC turbine ≠ leaving a regional with minimal PIC for Virgin.

aaaaaaaaaand here comes the haterade, but I'm honey badger! :)
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Ill deflect some of that haterade for you.....

Having flown single-pilot and single-seat jets most of my life, my TPIC isn't much less than my TT. I don't see why it's so difficult for people to gain TPIC? Been gaining it from day 1 post-UPT in the jet.....

:)
 
Doug Taylor said:
True!

I don't want to sound like an arrogant ass, but my decision to leave SYX for Southernjets with a pittance of PIC turbine ≠ leaving a regional with minimal PIC for Virgin.

aaaaaaaaaand here comes the haterade, but I'm honey badger! :)
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true I agree, however my chances of getting on at DAL are probably less than 20% imo, probably even less for fedex and ups.
 
More fuel to the fire, but I had 300 tpic in a Convair when I got hired at UPS. When I hit the left seat of the 757/767 it took me YEARS to reach 1000 TPIC cause I bid reserve and didn't work much. I think I got it now, but I'd bet less then 1500. And I'm 50 and been at UPS for 21 years. Weird business. TPIC seems like a big deal, but if I got through training without any jet PIC, I would think anyone else should be able to.
 
jtrain609 said:
There are examples of this, too. In the furloughs after 9/11, NOBODY could find work.
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Well, that's just not true. At all. There were quite a few jobs available at the time. AirTran, Southwest, JetBlue, Spirit, etc. But every one of those jobs required at least 1,000 TPIC. If you were one of the furloughed guys without it, you were going back to the regionals. The other guys at least had a chance at a decent job.
 
DE727UPS said:
Weird business. TPIC seems like a big deal, but if I got through training without any jet PIC, I would think anyone else should be able to.
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I dont think that's the argument people are trying to make. I am sure with enough 121 experience, passing a CA upgrade isnt too difficult. Its making a move to a larger airline without any TPIC. 1000 TPIC is somewhat of a standard amongst the majors. I say if you are close to upgrading, stay and get it instead of going to VX. However if you are junior FO and it doesnt look like you are gonna upgrade anytime soon, might as well make the jump. You really dont have much to lose. If anything at least you gain a A320 type, and time on a larger airframe.

if it was DL, FedEx, or any other legacy I would forgo my TPIC just to get on that seniority list. If i get furloughed a year later, well then back to a regional I go, but I would have been there anyway, so its not like you would have lost much in the move.

I think you have to evaluate each situation differently. You cant use a blanket approach as to what you would do in a situation like this. Fortunately I have a lil over 1000TPIC, so I am trying to go almost anywhere at this point. And holding out for a certain airline makes no sense to me. The only time it does is if you dont commute now at ur regional, and are waiting for a major/legacy carrier that also has a hub in that city (ie MSP based pinnacle pilot waiting for delta to hire)

Good luck to all
 
skyw82 said:
What if you are a captain and have about half of the 1000 pic?
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I think you'd be crazy to give up the opportunity to just sit there in the seat for another 6-12 months to finish off the 1,000 TPIC. Especially for Virgin. Seriously, that airline is not stable. Don't give up PIC time for a job that might only last a year.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Especially for Virgin. Seriously, that airline is not stable. Don't give up PIC time for a job that might only last a year.
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I won't toss in any comments about the TPIC stuff as I have no skin in this game, thankfully. What I will add, having worked for VS (not VX but close enough) for a number of years is, Branson will keep feeding the VX machine as long as he needs to. He has no outs, as mentioned, because of the ownership laws. He never sold VS after many years of losing money-I saw lots of cuts at VS bc of this, but the airline wasn't going to be sold. For him, his ego and his pride won't let him see it fail. He's building a brand (VS, VS, trains, space, coke, etc) and if he wants to make inroads in the States, as he has in Europe, he can't quit now. JMO
 
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