Logging SIC time as total time under 135 ops for an A/C req. only 1 pilot?

I think some of you guys are really getting too fancy. If it's legal, log it. Separate columns are unnecessary; just log it. Hell, I log SIC snooze time in the back.
 
dasleben said:
I think some of you guys are really getting too fancy. If it's legal, log it. Separate columns are unnecessary; just log it. Hell, I log SIC snooze time in the back.
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omg but that can't be legal!! You need at least 2 columns for that! One for SIC snooze in the back and one for SIC awake in the back :sarcasm:
 
RogerWilco787 said:
I'm still confused, so if it states in the opspecs that one or two pilots can be required even though it's a single pilot a/c, then pic will be logged for the left seater and sic will be logged for the right seater?
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See if this helps remove the confusion:

#==============================
61.51(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of § 61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or

(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
==============================

Focus in on (2) and especially the bolded portion. There are two conditions under which a pilot may legitimately log SIC time: (a) when more than one pilot is required by the aircraft's type certificate and (b) when more than one pilot is required by "the regulations under which the flight is being conducted."

That last one is where people get confused, but all it means is that if there is something about the flight that requires a second pilot under the FAA's rules (not an insurance company's; not a flight company's), then the person who is not PIC may log the time as SIC, regardless of the type of aircraft.

For example
  • a IFR passenger charter in a 172 (if there is such a thing) requires a SIC under 135.101
  • an OpSpec may require a second pilot for certain (or all) operations (119.21-23 generally require compliance with OpSepecs)
In both of those cases, the SIC may log SIC time.

The question you need to ask is a simple one: Is a second pilot required by an FAA rule. If the answer is "yes," SIC time may be logged. If not, the answer is "no."
 
....and I'll repeat.....

You'll never get a consensus from a forum like this on a technical regulatory question open to a lot of interpretation...

Merry Christmas!
 
o_O Consensus? What does consensus have to do with it? If a consensus was that 1+1=13, it would still be incorrect. And if only one person out of 100 said it was 2, it would still be correct.

Read the tagline to my signature :p
 
squeezemylemon said:
I scrolled my far, and nowhere its authorized, you can fly but can not log, do you say you drive a car when on passenger seat?

this is just a way to sell you fake training.

sent from tapatalk :)
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To be blunt, you are wrong.

MidlifeFlyer beat me to 14 CFR 61.51(f)(2). Second in command time may be logged if the aircraft itself requires a second in command (B757), or if the regulations the aircraft is operated under requires it (C208, or what have you, under 135, with appropriate Ops Specs, and so on).

You'll never get a consensus from a forum like this on a technical regulatory question open to a lot of interpretation...
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Neither consensus nor interpretation are required.
 
web265 said:
....and I'll repeat.....

You'll never get a consensus from a forum like this on a technical regulatory question open to a lot of interpretation...

Merry Christmas!
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:bangheadagainstthewall:

This is no interpretation. Again the misinformation is disturbing on here.

The easiest way to think about it is Opsecs "overrule/replace" regs. It's not as simple cut and dry as that, but for someone not familiar with 135 operations this is the easiest way to explain it. If the opsecs have a SIC program for the operation and you're complying with the limitations of it, you can legally log it, just like you normally would.

Some gotcha's you have to look out for. It has to be in the opsecs and not the ops manual. Opsecs are approved, the ops manual is just accepted by the feds. If it's not in the Opsecs it's not legit, even though I'm sure some companies get away with this. The other gotcha, is the insurance right seater. Sometimes insurance companies want someone in the right seat for better rates. This is all fine and dandy but it gives you no legal leg to stand on for logging time unless something is approved in your Opsecs. You'll see this a lot in part 91 gigs.

Don't make a separate column, it's legit flight time, and can be logged. The validity of the flight time is up for interpretation when you interview somewhere, but that's a completely separate topic.
 
jhugz said:
The easiest way to think about it is Opsecs "overrule/replace" regs.
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I kinda like that, although OpSpecs are really just part of the regulatory system. Maybe for others it would be easier to think of them as a regulatory supplement. The net result is the same.

It's not just OpSpecs where this happens. A MEL allows operation with inop equipment that would otherwise ground the flight. The limitations in a POH might prohibit things that the rules otherwise allow. The concept is the same - an officially-recognized replacement for (your term) or supplement to (my term) the rules that would otherwise apply.
 
squeezemylemon said:
Absolutely Not...
No no no and no...
Go see the Faa and ask them.
Look in far aim.
Insurance don't set the rules. Companies don't set the rules.

You have plane for 1 or mutipilot.that'all.

Of course eaglejet want make their money from you.



People coming back from USA and getting caa hours on UK are refused. Same for safety pilot.
Rules are clear,check your faa book.
sent from tapatalk :-)
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Company op-spec over rule the FAA because it's FAA approved. If it's more restrictive then you follow it. If it's less restrictive then you follow that. That was straight from my POI's mouth. Follow the op spec and you'll be just fine
 
Another post to add about Opsecs is that they are now your regulatory guidance as a 135 operator or 121 for that matter. What your opsecs says, goes. For example, our opsecs let us do lower then normal takeoffs other then what's in the FAR's/approach charts. Opsecs may point to 135 regs, for example we comply with 135.265 and our opsecs points that out. If something isn't in our opsecs, for example vfr wx mins, it falls back to 135 regs. It doesn't overrule/replace, I guess supplement is a better word for it.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
I kinda like that, although OpSpecs are really just part of the regulatory system. Maybe for others it would be easier to think of them as a regulatory supplement. The net result is the same.

It's not just OpSpecs where this happens. A MEL allows operation with inop equipment that would otherwise ground the flight. The limitations in a POH might prohibit things that the rules otherwise allow. The concept is the same - an officially-recognized replacement for (your term) or supplement to (my term) the rules that would otherwise apply.
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ya gotta have approval in the Opspecs to use an MEL. (D095 - MEL authorization)

I like to look at opspecs as a permission slip from the FAA for everything the company can do. If there are no opspecs for something, most likely you can't do it (fly IFR at a class G airport for example. the regs don't prohibit this, but unless your opsecs approve it, you can't do it)
 
I think it does go into it. It would probably fall under the Class 1 nav section of your opsecs. I've never heard of an opsecs that doesn't go into that area one way or the other (aka allowed or not allowed).
 
SIUav8er said:
ya gotta have approval in the Opspecs to use an MEL. (D095 - MEL authorization)

I like to look at opspecs as a permission slip from the FAA for everything the company can do. If there are no opspecs for something, most likely you can't do it (fly IFR at a class G airport for example. the regs don't prohibit this, but unless your opsecs approve it, you can't do it)
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You can get an mel for any airplane through the fsdo. Don't need to be a certificated carrier or anything.
 
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