IFR with expired database

[JordanD]

Every plane I fly (annoyingly) seems to always have an expired gps database. I've been told you can supposedly file /G as long as you verify all the procedures are correct and havent been changed, but how are you going to realistically do this without climbing in the airplane and loading up every approach you might potentially use. I believe the same rule applies to filing /A and using it for DME. So is filing /U the correct way to go about it? It seems kind of pointless when you have the GPS and probably creates more work for thr controllers, but I don't want to get violated or worse.

 

[bb10pilot]

You can still file /G for IFR flight even with the expired database. You can still use the GPS for the enroute and terminal phase of the flight, but obviously not use it for the approach. My understanding, is the same as yours, to verify the GPS data is correct- reference it's position with the chart.

Here is a good article on IFR GPS: http://www.fredonflying.com/Articles/IFR_Refresher/1001-IFR-GPS-Regulations.pdf

 

[Mark815]

This always became a heated discussion when I was a CFI. There were always a few co-workers and other pilots who would NEVER file /G with an expired data base, and there were people like me who always said to file, just don't shoot a GPS approach. I'm not going to go VOR to VOR for hundreds of miles, when I have a perfectly good GPS and could use it to potentially go direct destination just because the database is expired. Fixes and airports generally don't move.

 

[Dugie8]

What does the MEL say?

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

What does the MEL say?

Not likely to be an MEL in many of the GA planes out there. More important question is what does the approved GPS flight supplement say.

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

Look in the GPS operating manual. I'll bet you it says somewhere, something to the affect of "IFR operations prohibited without current database"...

The FAA has their rules, then there's the supplemental limitations set by the manufacturer...

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

From the Garmin 400/420/430 manual

Can I file slant Golf (“/G”) using my GPS?

Yes, you may file your flight plan as /G if your 400W-series unit is an authorized IFR installation. The 400W series is a TSO C146a Gamma-3 (Class 3) authorized GPS navigator. If you are flying en route, you may file /G with an expired database only after you have verified all route waypoints. Approaches may not be flown with an expired database. See your approved Airplane Flight Manual Supplement for more information.

FWIW, the part about verifying waypoints is the same as the MEL item for the FMS databases in the jets I fly.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Straight from the AIM:

2Requires verification of data for correctness if database is expired.3Requires current database or verification that the procedure has not been amended since the expiration of the database.


2 applies to Enroute and Terminal
3 applies to Approach

 

[ChasenSFO]

To test it out, why not just see what the date of the last update was on the GPS, then look up the approach and see if its been revised since then?

 

[A150K]

To file /U would be unnecessary. Like said above (not sure what the King supplement say's), if it is a Garmin 4/500 series, go ahead and file /G, just don't shoot a GPS approach. This situation actually came up bringing a 177RG back from TUS-SAF at 0100 one dark and cheerless morning. I filed /G and "verfied" everything with my enroute chart. Some people make it seem like VORs/fixes move every 56 days.

 

[TwoTwoLeft]

From the Garmin 400/420/430 manual

There you have it!

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

There you have it!

Indeed you do. I wonder whether there's a revision in the works since Garmin is now more restrictive than the FAA.

Edit: just thought of something ironic. According to the AIM, you may fly just about anything IFR without a current database so long as you verify the currency and accuracy of the information. I've never seen any guidance beyond that but, I suppose the way you verify accuracy is by comparing the procedure in the database with the procedure on a current chart (a good idea anyway when using GPS). My current charts are in Foreflight on my iPad.

So... I get to use the non-certified, not usable for primary navigation iPad in order to verify the currency of the information in my certified, usable for primary navigation on-board GPS.

 

[JordanD]

What easy way is there to do that before flight? I mean I usually file before I head to the airport, so it's not possible to really know before my flight plan is already in the system.

 

[Rocketman99]

What easy way is there to do that before flight? I mean I usually file before I head to the airport, so it's not possible to really know before my flight plan is already in the system.

You verify the gps coordinates of all the fixes you will be using on your route of flight between the chart and your onboard gps. Fairly simple. Used to be part of the normal preflight item on the KC-135 comparing all the fix coordinates in the route to the flight plan, probably still is. Same applies to the mega dash 8. 99.9% of the time, the route you filed is not goign to have fixes that were miraculously relocated in space since you filed. The more likely changes are new waypoints on the routing. Always a good idea to verify what the GPS spits out against a chart anyway!