Student issue

F

Flybywire

New Member
I've currently got a student who is sitting at about 35 hours. He is proficient as can be with the airplane. He can fly up to private PTS standards. My issue and concern is he lacks the common sense/awareness factor. For example... he'll turn onto the runway instead of the taxiway, line up for the wrong runway on final, enter the wrong way in the traffic pattern, and is heavily reliable on the G430. His attitude is very poor due to the fact that he isn't paying for any of it and feels entitled to do what he wants while flying. It's always the towers fault or something. I've had him fly with other CFI's to get a better opinion. One thinks it's a miracle he graduated college, the other thinks he is capable and once he sees his mistake he doesn't repeat it. If we were at a non towered airport I'd send him solo in a heart beat.

I had to take a break from this student due to my patience level wearing out. 3 days in a row he couldn't remember the atis frequency. He went on a solo stage check about 2 months ago and his knowledge wasn't even close. His ego got in the way and he decided to quit. He took about a month break and then came back and said he was ready to press on. We did a bunch of ground work and got him really proficient in the knowledge areas. He keeps asking me when is he going to solo and is getting really frustrated, but now I'm not sure I even want to ever sign him off just based on what I've seen. I told the student it would probably be another 5-10 hours of us flying around to make sure his situational awareness was there and he freaked out on me.

We are having a meeting tomorrow along with the chief pilot to discuss what our options are. The chief pilot wants me to keep him happy because he is revenue. I don't want to lose my job by losing a customer but I really don't feel comfortable ever putting my $70,000 signature in his logbook. Any ideas/tips/comments for how to deal with my Boss and the Customer to keep everyone happy?
 
Flybywire said:
. He keeps asking me when is he going to solo and is getting really frustrated, but now I'm not sure I even want to ever sign him off just based on what I've seen. I told the student it would probably be another 5-10 hours of us flying around to make sure his situational awareness was there and he freaked out on me.
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Student: When will I solo?

CFI: When you mange to remember the ATIS frequency, when you quit turning onto the runway instead of the taxiway, when you quit entering the traffic pattern the wrong way, when you always line up for the correct runway on final, and when you're not completely reliant on the GPS.
 
Mike H said:
Student: When will I solo?

CFI: When you mange to remember the ATIS frequency, when you quit turning onto the runway instead of the taxiway, when you quit entering the traffic pattern the wrong way, when you always line up for the correct runway on final, and when you're not completely reliant on the GPS.
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All things that I screwed up before 35 hours as well (except relying on the GPS, it didn't exist)

Airport operations (runway/taxi etc) can take a while to grasp, and forgetting an ATIS freq is hardly the end of the world. Just pull the breaker on the 430 from now on ;)

If you aren't comfortable, have someone else take over. The "when will I solo?" only has one correct answer - "when he is ready."
 
He's paying you to tell him how it is. If you feel more comfortable have a meeting with him and your CP. Or have another instructor solo him. It's important to have him explore all the options available. He might want or need a new instructor at this point.

Good luck
 
Why don't you fly into an untowered airport with one runway and have him fly there for awhile? Then you could solo him there, having him stay ONLY in the pattern. It's hard to get the wrong runway when you have one choice and took off from one way. I highly doubt the winds would do a 180 shift in the time it takes him to do three laps around the airport.
 
Show him the private pilot PTS and explain he needs to be able to perform to these standards.....discuss special emphasis items such as rwy incursion avoidance procedures, use of checklist etc. I tell my students on my first lesson that we are not just teaching them to operate a machine but operate it safely in the national airspace system.....performance of both need to be up to required standards before they take it round the patch themselves.
 
Well I can certainly understand his frustration..He's at 35 hours and you're telling him 10 more before he even solos? In my opinion these issues should have been handled much earlier..How can it go on for 35 hours without correction? and if it's been continually corrected maybe it's time to have a chat with him about his intentions as far as flying. Flying isn't for everyone.
 
Flybywire said:
3 days in a row he couldn't remember the atis frequency.
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Why does he have to memorize the ATIS frequency? Isn't it on the chart? I'd be more concerned that he knew where to get it in case he forgot...

Aside of his bonehead mistakes, remember he's a STUDENT. Students are not supposed to be perfect, they just need to be safe to fly around in the pattern. When I first read what you wrote I thought he was getting ready for his private checkride with all that he was going through.


Sounds like you two weren't meant to be. Time to meet new people.
 
In the military, we called these guys washouts.

But there are generally no washouts in civvie-land. So long as the money keeps flowing and someone is willing to fly with him, this guy can be a dual student forever.
 
Although I dont know the full picture, Im tending to side with the student at this point... I never make them memorize ATIS, Make him use an airport diagram, that will solve almost all the issues I see in the OP. And if he flies to PTS standards why does he need to do 10 more hours? Do you do debriefs with him? 10 hours with a whiteboard seems to be more fitting than flying.

Again I havnt flown with him, But its our job as the CFI to make sure he gets the best quality instruction that he can get. If you was in his shoes, what would you like your CFI to do?

Im not saying he should solo if hes not ready, but sometimes they need to just get out and do it. This is a great confidence booster. But sitting in the pattern for additional 10 hours trying to please the CFI may just lower his confidence. Why cant you go solo him at an uncontrolled airport if you feel he is ready for that?

I can name student after student I had that had that "instructor" that would never let them go.

I dont like the Chief Instructor meetings where Instructor and Student argues back and forth to try and get the Chief to side with one or another. You need to meet with the chief ahead of time first, both come to an agreement, and then invite the student in.

Just my opinion....
 
I also find it strange and unusual that a guy can't solo in 35 hours. Maybe out of a place like KBFI or LAX or something. Not sure where you operate out of. I'm old skool and wouldn't allow a pre-solo to use the nav features of a GPS. Pre-solo should be about learning how to fly stick and rudder and landing consistently without bending metal. I'd have left the GPS for the cross country stuff. But that's water under the bridge at this point.

I'd echo what another poster mentioned about a non-towered one runway airport. I'd take him out there and get him comfortable with it and let him go. It might be the confidence boost he needs to happily move on. But only do it if he meets your standards for solo on that day at that airport.
 
TGatch said:
Well I can certainly understand his frustration..He's at 35 hours and you're telling him 10 more before he even solos? In my opinion these issues should have been handled much earlier..How can it go on for 35 hours without correction? and if it's been continually corrected maybe it's time to have a chat with him about his intentions as far as flying. Flying isn't for everyone.
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He also stopped flying for a month in between so the fact that he is higher time is due to his choice of dropping flying for a month. These issues are constant and they are handled every day. If its corrected one day... another day it's a new thing. He isn't paying for a dime of it so he doesn't care.
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
Why does he have to memorize the ATIS frequency? Isn't it on the chart? I'd be more concerned that he knew where to get it in case he forgot...

Aside of his bonehead mistakes, remember he's a STUDENT. Students are not supposed to be perfect, they just need to be safe to fly around in the pattern. When I first read what you wrote I thought he was getting ready for his private checkride with all that he was going through.


Sounds like you two weren't meant to be. Time to meet new people.
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I tried to pass him on and nobody will take him. I don't expect him to be perfect. I expect him to be safe. He has all of his dual requirements met and needs his 10 hours of solo. He keeps talking about how he wants to take his checkride and keeps setting dates for when he wants to take the ride by. I say okay but then you need to show me you're ready. So forgetting the atis frequency 3 days in a row and forgetting your airport diagram when I've reminded him constantly wouldn't look very good on your private pilot checkride.
 
Flybywire said:
I tried to pass him on and nobody will take him. I don't expect him to be perfect. I expect him to be safe. He has all of his dual requirements met and needs his 10 hours of solo. He keeps talking about how he wants to take his checkride and keeps setting dates for when he wants to take the ride by. I say okay but then you need to show me you're ready. So forgetting the atis frequency 3 days in a row and forgetting your airport diagram when I've reminded him constantly wouldn't look very good on your private pilot checkride.
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As Mike H said above, it seems to me he needs some straight up honest tough love, like telling him outright "look man, you can fly fine and you're smart enough to get all of this, but your head is not 100% in the game and that's making you unsafe, and until that changes you will not solo. We can keep flying dual forever if you want, but if you want to solo I need to be convinced that you're serious enough to pay attention to the details". You've already had others evaluate him, go ahead and share those details too... sounds like he could use the humility it might bring to hear that nobody wants to fly with him. If he leaves, so be it.
 
Flybywire said:
I tried to pass him on and nobody will take him. I don't expect him to be perfect. I expect him to be safe. He has all of his dual requirements met and needs his 10 hours of solo. He keeps talking about how he wants to take his checkride and keeps setting dates for when he wants to take the ride by. I say okay but then you need to show me you're ready. So forgetting the atis frequency 3 days in a row and forgetting your airport diagram when I've reminded him constantly wouldn't look very good on your private pilot checkride.
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What's wrong with forgetting the ATIS frequency 3 days in a row? It's not a requirement to memorize the frequency, but only to have your VFR sectional out which has everything listed. Forgetting your airport diagram once or twice isn't a big deal (except on your checkride), instructors should have a copy to loan out. I once forgot my approach plates to an IFR training session and my instructor just pulled his out and didn't make a big deal about it. You should just take this guy over to a non-towered one runway airport and let him solo there, then eventually his situation awareness will be good enough for a towered multi-runway airport. Some people take up to 80 hours to get their private if they have large gaps between flying.
 
Flybywire said:
I tried to pass him on and nobody will take him. I don't expect him to be perfect. I expect him to be safe. He has all of his dual requirements met and needs his 10 hours of solo. He keeps talking about how he wants to take his checkride and keeps setting dates for when he wants to take the ride by. I say okay but then you need to show me you're ready. So forgetting the atis frequency 3 days in a row and forgetting your airport diagram when I've reminded him constantly wouldn't look very good on your private pilot checkride.
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Someones priorities are all screwed up. Could be yours, the flight school's, or letting the student call the shots. Either way, how the does he have almost all his requirements met to take the checkride but hasn't soloed???? You keep talking about PTS standards and being able to pass a checkride when in fact you've blown off the single most important thing, the SOLO! He has to crawl and walk before he can run. You've catered to him this whole time, advancing him through the training with out any real achievement creating a monster. I'm all for pt61 and doing your own thing but theres a reason why the Pre-solo/XC/Checkride prep instruction model works so well. With this kind of student you need to whip their ass into shape and tell them how it going to be from day one or they'll walk all over you. You don't have to be mean about it, just take charge. Right now the focus needs to be on soloing NOT the checkride.

Some other things to consider if you still have to fly with him... How do you feel about signing him off for a solo XC??? Maybe he's really scared to solo so he might be screwing up on purpose? After you solo and he keeps up with the attitude, let him schedule his own checkride and sign him of to take it. Worst that happens is he fails and gets his ego put in check. Or he might just study his ass off surprise you and pass.
 
It sounds like you need to step up and be the instructor and less friendly. From the way you are writing things, your student seems to be controlling the situation, and or trying to control the situation. Don't worry about hurting the students feelings, sometimes people have to just be told how it is. Needing the 430? Turn it off. Forgets ATIS freq and charts to be able to find it...well I guess he's not flying and he's getting charged for ground. Tries to taxi onto an active runway...turn around we're going back to the ramp. Lines up on final for wrong runway...if that has happened several times and you have showed him visual reference points for the different runways, showed him he can verify which way he is going with the compass and the DG, maybe forced him to write down the runway assignment after reading it back. When I was instructing, as soon as my student proved to me they knew how to do something the right way once it was their responsibility from then on. To the student I would be a passenger, and make them do everything on their own without my help.

Sometimes you have to think outside the box when instructing as some students truly are "unique" ;)

Good luck
 
Carbon said:
. Lines up on final for wrong runway...if that has happened several times and you have showed him visual reference points for the different runways, showed him he can verify which way he is going with the compass and the DG, maybe forced him to write down the runway assignment after reading it back.
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It takes some people a long time to get that spatial awareness - I wouldn't expect it to be perfect at 35 hours. Heck, I lined up on the wrong runway getting ready for a commercial ride not too far back.

Give the guy a break. Calmly tell him exactly what he needs to do to solo, and help him get there. Doesn't need to be adversarial - and I'd lead off with all of the stuff he is doing right.
 
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