FAA to boost Co-pilot training, avoid ATP rule
- Thread starter Two Kings
- Start date
Mark815
Well-Known Member
1000 likes if I could.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
Agreed.
For some reason, I seem to recall both of these guys were senior pilots at their respective airlines. Both were PICs, a.k.a. "Captains", at their respective carriers, not SICs (which is the position being discussed in this thread. Also, both had STRONG academic backgrounds as well as experience.
I still don't get the strong aversion by many on JC to a formalized academic/theoretical knowledge base in addition to experience to be a professional pilot, be it a military flight track, or civilian university/experience track.
Would you rather have your first "real" job being single pilot PIC or sitting next to a guy like Capt. Haines or Capt. Sullenberger and learning what those guys have to offer. (protip: it's called 'institutional knowledge')
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
How much TT did you have when you had your icing deal some time ago?
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
What's your major at SIU?
Obviously, you have had some excellent mentorship and instructors. You have also demonstrated lots of hustle, skill and abilities as well.
Muff3n
Well-Known Member
I wish it was just the flat 1500 hour rule. Giving free credit to guys that decided to get aviation degrees instead of a degree in something as a backup degree is probably definitely going to hurt me trying to get a job. Almost every day it seems like its going to be more and more difficult to get a job in a few years. I don't have a problem with the 1500 rule, but making it where some are exempt is going to make it a real pain. Makes me getting a 4 year in something besides aviation not very helpful.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
I am so thankful for the opportunity to fly with guys like this where I work. It is really impressive and humbling. I have to do a little extra work in terms of cleaning up and loading bags but for 100% of these guys I do it gladly. Hell, when I am 66 years old I wouldn't want to work not to mention load bags or clean a toilet.
I also want to add for the guys just getting started is that you don't know what your not aware of. throughout my career I have been amazed at what a dummy I am in terms of experience. In other words it becomes clear how unprepared you are or were when you become more experienced. The experienced people are not "holding you back". They just want to keep people safe. Secondary to that experienced guys want to see labor relations improve. As long as there is a conveyor belt of new pilots joining the ranks there will be little chance of job quality improvement.
tlewis95
I drive planes
I am in Aviation Management, teaching in the Aviation Flight program while I get my degree in AVM and a Geography minor in 3 years/6 semesters.
I did most of my training and experience gaining Part-61 style, but did my CFI certs with SIU. I teach at the Part-61 school I did my training at over the Summer and during breaks.
(Huge thanks to JC for the majority of that mentorship btw)
ILS37R
Well-Known Member
I don't think it's an aversion to a formal education. Having more book knowledge should always be a positive. It's just--in this specific case--the potential of book knowledge is being used to get around a clearly-stated experience goal. What's being proposed here isn't in the interest of safety, it's in the interest of maintaining the SJS spigot that keeps pay down.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
I'll be honest, guys. I only really wanted to see this ATP rule go into effect because it'd potentially create a market slanted in our favor. Safety didn't have much to do with it. Fewer qualified pilots = better pay and better QOL to attract candidates. I'm disappointed it's being knocked down, but only because of what it might do to our career progression.
I was a Riddle guy who graduated with the BS degree ("BS" stands for more than just "Bachelor of Science") in Aero Sci. The classes were decent, but I wouldn't say it's put me any further ahead than anyone else who's gone through other avenues. I taught at Riddle for about a year as well, and again, it didn't put me any further ahead than anyone else. I had the same boneheaded students, instructing in the same 172s and Seminoles everyone else instructed in.
As scary as it might sound, I had 850 hours when I was hired at XJT. I clearly remember passing my 1000 hour mark descending into some ridiculous mountain town in Mexico in a transport jet. The transition from the CFI ranks to 121 F/O was definitely a tough one, but I worked hard and had excellent Captains who showed me the ropes and mentored me. Note: Being mentored doesn't mean that you're so green that you shouldn't be flying the airplane; I could fly the airplane safely, but I was free to learn and make mistakes with experienced supervision. I feel that it made me an exponentially better pilot, though in order to take advantage of that experience, you have to be willing to learn. If your idea of being an airline F/O is to sit there and stare out the window, raise gear, and land occasionally, you'll get nothing out of it. You have to be passionate enough about your craft to push yourself to the next level.
I was at XJT for just over a year when I got furloughed. From there, I went to my first SPIFR job, flying 402s with Cape Air. I got my ATP during training, and hit the line as PIC; I didn't spend a day sitting in the right seat. We got thrown into the left seat on day 1 of IOE, and were expected to be able to safely fly people, in northeast weather, from A to B. While a 402 isn't exactly a transport jet, most of those skills I learned transfered over. I was not only comfortable flying around thunderstorms and in wintry weather, my decision making skills were largely already intact from my previous job. I had seen and learned most of this stuff already; there was still a learning curve, but it wasn't as steep as some. I spent two years flying a 402 around the northeast in hard weather, learning how to be in command. The foundation for that was the SIC time I already had from my previous job. Yes, you can do the job without that SIC experience, but I felt that it only helped me in the long run.
Next job (current job): I got hired to fly a 757/767 last year with 2700 hours total. Yes, that's low-time for this aircraft. However, total time isn't everything. The reason I'm safe at what I do is because of my previous experience. In training (and on the line), I've dug around in my bag of experience and pulled out things I've learned from not only XJT, but Cape Air. People often ask me how difficult of a transition it was from a 402 to a 767, and my response is always "Not difficult at all. An airplane is an airplane is an airplane." There's a learning curve with my current job, but the basic airmanship and decision making skills that were needed for this job were already in place from previous companies. My previous experience, not total time, is what allows me to do the job I do. I guarantee that I would not have passed training if my only experience up to that point was as a CFI. No way in hell.
Again: Experience, not total time, is what will make you or break you as a pilot. One usually follows the other, but not always; total time is NOT a direct measure of experience.
I was a Riddle guy who graduated with the BS degree ("BS" stands for more than just "Bachelor of Science") in Aero Sci. The classes were decent, but I wouldn't say it's put me any further ahead than anyone else who's gone through other avenues. I taught at Riddle for about a year as well, and again, it didn't put me any further ahead than anyone else. I had the same boneheaded students, instructing in the same 172s and Seminoles everyone else instructed in.
As scary as it might sound, I had 850 hours when I was hired at XJT. I clearly remember passing my 1000 hour mark descending into some ridiculous mountain town in Mexico in a transport jet. The transition from the CFI ranks to 121 F/O was definitely a tough one, but I worked hard and had excellent Captains who showed me the ropes and mentored me. Note: Being mentored doesn't mean that you're so green that you shouldn't be flying the airplane; I could fly the airplane safely, but I was free to learn and make mistakes with experienced supervision. I feel that it made me an exponentially better pilot, though in order to take advantage of that experience, you have to be willing to learn. If your idea of being an airline F/O is to sit there and stare out the window, raise gear, and land occasionally, you'll get nothing out of it. You have to be passionate enough about your craft to push yourself to the next level.
I was at XJT for just over a year when I got furloughed. From there, I went to my first SPIFR job, flying 402s with Cape Air. I got my ATP during training, and hit the line as PIC; I didn't spend a day sitting in the right seat. We got thrown into the left seat on day 1 of IOE, and were expected to be able to safely fly people, in northeast weather, from A to B. While a 402 isn't exactly a transport jet, most of those skills I learned transfered over. I was not only comfortable flying around thunderstorms and in wintry weather, my decision making skills were largely already intact from my previous job. I had seen and learned most of this stuff already; there was still a learning curve, but it wasn't as steep as some. I spent two years flying a 402 around the northeast in hard weather, learning how to be in command. The foundation for that was the SIC time I already had from my previous job. Yes, you can do the job without that SIC experience, but I felt that it only helped me in the long run.
Next job (current job): I got hired to fly a 757/767 last year with 2700 hours total. Yes, that's low-time for this aircraft. However, total time isn't everything. The reason I'm safe at what I do is because of my previous experience. In training (and on the line), I've dug around in my bag of experience and pulled out things I've learned from not only XJT, but Cape Air. People often ask me how difficult of a transition it was from a 402 to a 767, and my response is always "Not difficult at all. An airplane is an airplane is an airplane." There's a learning curve with my current job, but the basic airmanship and decision making skills that were needed for this job were already in place from previous companies. My previous experience, not total time, is what allows me to do the job I do. I guarantee that I would not have passed training if my only experience up to that point was as a CFI. No way in hell.
Again: Experience, not total time, is what will make you or break you as a pilot. One usually follows the other, but not always; total time is NOT a direct measure of experience.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
Yep.
Yep, again.dasleben said:
You can repeat the same VFR hour over, and over, and over again, and be no wiser for it.
I have another thought - I hear a lot of fun being poked at the 'Aviation BS' degree. I have an aviation degree from a Big10 university (guess which one
And when I graduated this past December - I had two full time job offers, granted they where within the aviation industry, a B2B MRO sales and leasing marketing postion, and at an aircraft dealers marketing department. None where flying, so I kept my full time CFI job, then got hired at Piedmont, and am now at ExpressJet. The degree does not matter - the fact that it is a BS is enough to get it infront of any recruiters 15 second glance - whats key is the extra curricular's, the clubs, and way you can sell the degree during an interview. My father works for a fortune 100 company, and their hiring policy is if the job requires a bachelors, any bachelors will suffice - providing you can sell the degree and sell how it fits into the job description.
We all want to be treated, and paid as professionals, well I hate to say it but Engineers, (professionals) Doctors, (professionals) Lawyers, (professionals) Accountants, (professionals), all have a medical degree, engineering degree, juris degree, accounting degrees, etc. They might have an unrelated undergraduate degree, but Doctors, dont hold onto their Biology degree, incase being a doctor 'does not work out.'
I am not saying that the degree should be in place of hours and experience, but rather should coincide with them. The knowldgege gained in Purdues classrom are invaluble in the academic portion of 121 training, the skills learned in Purdue's sims where invaluable in the simulator portion of 121 training, and my flight experience (aerial survey, corporate, CFI), has been invaluable on the line. 700 hours is not the end all solution, but it is a step in the right direction, as I learned a lot in my first 700 hours, and consider myself an asset, rather than a distraction in the cockpit.
Cheers!
And when I graduated this past December - I had two full time job offers, granted they where within the aviation industry, a B2B MRO sales and leasing marketing postion, and at an aircraft dealers marketing department. None where flying, so I kept my full time CFI job, then got hired at Piedmont, and am now at ExpressJet. The degree does not matter - the fact that it is a BS is enough to get it infront of any recruiters 15 second glance - whats key is the extra curricular's, the clubs, and way you can sell the degree during an interview. My father works for a fortune 100 company, and their hiring policy is if the job requires a bachelors, any bachelors will suffice - providing you can sell the degree and sell how it fits into the job description. We all want to be treated, and paid as professionals, well I hate to say it but Engineers, (professionals) Doctors, (professionals) Lawyers, (professionals) Accountants, (professionals), all have a medical degree, engineering degree, juris degree, accounting degrees, etc. They might have an unrelated undergraduate degree, but Doctors, dont hold onto their Biology degree, incase being a doctor 'does not work out.'
I am not saying that the degree should be in place of hours and experience, but rather should coincide with them. The knowldgege gained in Purdues classrom are invaluble in the academic portion of 121 training, the skills learned in Purdue's sims where invaluable in the simulator portion of 121 training, and my flight experience (aerial survey, corporate, CFI), has been invaluable on the line. 700 hours is not the end all solution, but it is a step in the right direction, as I learned a lot in my first 700 hours, and consider myself an asset, rather than a distraction in the cockpit.
Cheers!
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
I think you'll find the threads discussing this issue when the rule was proposed don't seem to read that way. There seemed to be a serious aversion to a formalized education in basic and advanced knowledge to be a professional pilot on a civilian track. Also, EVERYTHING was ended with "safety, amen" (/sarcastic parody)
Again, I'm not suggesting to replace experience with academic knowledge. Kind of by definition experience can only be garnered by experiencing things.
Jet
Well-Known Member
Very true!!!! That is a hard concept for some people to grasp.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
So you want a barrier-to-entry that meets qualifications that you have (1500 hours - much easier to get than a 4-year degree from an accredited institution (a real accreditation not a jetU accreditation)), but not a barrier-to-entry that you don't have.
hmmmm....at some point people have to quit the "I got mine, FU" stuff
A
Adler
Guest
I'd like to see what a 5,000 hour guy would do in that situation.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
I've given epic facepalm to 500hr, 1500hr, 5000hr 10000hr & 15000hr pilots. It's amazing what economic cycles let one see.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
You're doing the same thing on the other end of the issue.
