AirTran/SWA Seniority Integration Deal

[Richman]

Hey all,

If the SWA guys are torqued that "they didn't get anything out of the deal", then they should bitch to their union, and not take it out on the Tranny guys. There was plenty of opportunity to hold the company up for a king's ransom to make this thing "go smooth".

Richman

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

One has to wonder why the merger/negotiating committee even brought this deal to the MEC. Obviously (well, nothing is obvious with arbitration but...) arbitration is going to lead to better results so why even bother with this?

The argument from the MC is that they achieved protections such as a 10 year fence in ATL and a guarantee that the 717 will pay the same as the SWA 737 rates, and there aren't absolute guarantees that those things will take place if we go to arbitration.

I had figured ALPA was blowing smoke when they said that they had an industry leading scope clause at ATN. Especially since ALPA seems to think that outsourcing is awesome. I'm ecstatic that SWAPA canceled the SKW "code share". Hope the integration is more fair but ALPA doesn't need to continue its destructive path of siding with management.

We do have industry leading protections in this area. We have holding company scope, successorship protections, a requirement to merge operations, etc. Our holding company scope is second to none.

So what happens to ALPA after the deal is complete? Do they continue to represent ATN pilots, do they fade out or is this their last piece of business before being kicked off the job by SWAPA?

There will be a vote for who will represent the combined pilot group.

Normally the Train would be correct, but this situation is a little different, because AirTran makes up less than 35% of the combined group. Because of that, the NMB doesn't hold an election for representation, so SWAPA will become the surviving union.

If this was a straight DOH intergration, only about 55% of current airtran captains could hold a captain seat at SWA, less if you don't count Lance captains.

Except for one very unusual arbitration involving a bankrupt carrier that was selling off airplanes (Shuttle America), no SLI has ever taken place without no-bump/no-flush protections that guaranteed all pilots that they wouldn't lose their seats, regardless of their actual system seniority.

I went through the interview, bought the type, and spent extra years at my crappy regional to get over 1000pic to just be looked at.

With the exception of the type, every AirTran pilot hired in the past decade did the same, Cole. In fact, we went a step further and required that at least 500 PIC was in part 121 or military operations, something that excluded people from being able to interview here while they could still qualify for SWA. Any argument that AirTran's hiring standards were less than SWA's just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Back in the '90s, you had a point. Not recently, though.

I knew I shouldn't have posted on this forum, just because of response like that. Last post, bash away on me for stating some FACTS.

I hope you keep posting, as long as we can keep it civil. It would be a shame if it got ugly like other boards, but it's nice to have posts from a different perspective, and we need as many major airline guys here as possible, as there aren't many of us.

And no matter how this goes through, I will continue to have a good time at work and with my fellow coworkers and take care of my passengers as they are the ones who afford me to live my life and provide for my family.

Same here!

From some of the ATN guys I have talked to, yes sitting RSV at SWA will give them a better QOL then they currently have at ATN as line holders.

Just not true.

 

[SteveC]

I hope you keep posting, as long as we can keep it civil. It would be a shame if it got ugly like other boards, but it's nice to have posts from a different perspective, and we need as many major airline guys here as possible, as there aren't many of us.

:yeahthat:

 

[WacoFan]

Thats the thing. Calling for fair and equity would seem to me to have different meanings depending on which side of the fence one finds themself in this whole equation of who is the purchaser and who is purchasee.

From a couple of days ago in another thread. Really this about sums it up.

Life isn't always fair.

Now, as far as how badly stung the Air Tran guys feel...they are getting a significant boost in pay - that should salve some of the sting of the loss of relative seniority. Certainly TWA guys and USAir/America West guys would have loved a fall-back provision that compensated them with huge pay raises for their trouble. The only way this goes from a nice raise to a home run is if SWA continues their growth - that's the key.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

We do have industry leading protections in this area. We have holding company scope, successorship protections, a requirement to merge operations, etc. Our holding company scope is second to none.

If scope is second to nome, arbitration is the way to go for the ISL, right? Why on earth did the merger committee agree to the proposal?

 

[BobDDuck]

If scope is second to nome, arbitration is the way to go for the ISL, right? Why on earth did the merger committee agree to the proposal?

Scope doesn't have anything to do with integrating seniority lists. It has to do with WHO can fly aircraft with the AirTran logo painted on the tail.

 

[pullup]

Scope doesn't have anything to do with integrating seniority lists. It has to do with WHO can fly aircraft with the AirTran logo painted on the tail.

Right, I'm sure they took into consideration age of airline, FO and captain seniority, amount of each, etc. And vetted out a deal both teams could obviously agree on.

 

[jtrain609]

I hope you keep posting, as long as we can keep it civil. It would be a shame if it got ugly like other boards, but it's nice to have posts from a different perspective, and we need as many major airline guys here as possible, as there aren't many of us.

Civility is great, and maybe I'm the only one that feels this way, but I'm not interested in coming here to read about pilot group A tossing pilot group B under the bus for reasons that include:

1. Pilot group A is awesome and pilot group B sucks.
2. Pilot group A bought pilot group B, so pilot group B can suck it.
3. Pilot group A is way more awesome than pilot group B, so pilot group B should be thrilled to be hanging out with awesome pilots at pilot group A.
4. Pilot group A works for a better company, and pilot group B should be thrilled that pilot group A bestowed upon them the ability to work with pilot group A.
5. Pilot group A had a such better outlook as far as career goes, and pilot should B can suck it.

I hear enough of this crap at work that it's really starting to get to me. Fences between RJ's? "WE bought YOU!" "NO PBS!!!"

Mergers are bad enough without guys thinking its their God given right to try to hose somebody else that had no interest in being purchased. Combine that with the anonymity of the internet, and the results are horrible. So yes, civility, but not to the point that civility is shown the back seat to trying to get another pilot group under the Greyhound that you're driving.

 

[MikeD]

Civility is great, and maybe I'm the only one that feels this way, but I'm not interested in coming here to read about pilot group A tossing pilot group B under the bus for reasons that include:

1. Pilot group A is awesome and pilot group B sucks.
2. Pilot group A bought pilot group B, so pilot group B can suck it.
3. Pilot group A is way more awesome than pilot group B, so pilot group B should be thrilled to be hanging out with awesome pilots at pilot group A.
4. Pilot group A works for a better company, and pilot group B should be thrilled that pilot group A bestowed upon them the ability to work with pilot group A.
5. Pilot group A had a such better outlook as far as career goes, and pilot should B can suck it.

I hear enough of this crap at work that it's really starting to get to me. Fences between RJ's? "WE bought YOU!" "NO PBS!!!"

Mergers are bad enough without guys thinking its their God given right to try to hose somebody else that had no interest in being purchased. Combine that with the anonymity of the internet, and the results are horrible. So yes, civility, but not to the point that civility is shown the back seat to trying to get another pilot group under the Greyhound that you're driving.

Told you 121 was angry. Come do some other flying where its a better environment, more meaningful missions, much better pay and QOL; and get away from that crazy rat race that's bothering you at work.......

 

[jtrain609]

Told you 121 was angry. Come do some other flying where its a better environment, more meaningful missions, much better pay and QOL; and get away from that crazy rat race that's bothering you at work.......

Not in the cards, Mike. At times I wish it was, but the job itself isn't so bad, it's the BS that surrounds it.

 

[SteveC]

Every job has BS. One of the keys to a happy life is to keep it in perspective.

It's a job.

 

[surreal1221]

There will be a vote for who will represent the combined pilot group.

Actually, and Todd can verify this...but there won't be a representational vote at all.

SWAPA will represent the combined group. If I had the text and explanation on this machine I'd past it...but it largely has to do with the respective sizes of the work groups and a few other quantifiers. I'll see if I can drag it out.

edit: nevermind, appears he did address it. Tough to read all the posts at once...

 

[greaper007]

I think his point is, that is all about pay and QOL, and SWA FOs have are paid more then AT CAs and have a better QOL. So who cares what seat you are in if you are getting paid more and have a better QOL.

That's exactly what I meant. A merger with SWA (based on past performance) is most likely going to result in a better career projection than merging with any other airline. Add to that a major boost in pay and I don't see how the medicine goes down that bad. I would gladly go from a line holder to reserve for an extra 30-40k a year. It would also mean that I could sit in the right seat longer and not feel a rush to upgrade. Beyond the pay and PIC time I found very little that was appealing about being Captain.

If I was at airtran right now I'd just be happy that we weren't merging with Airways or United. YMMV

 

[CaptainApollo]

Yes, there are significant pay raises involved (although I would argue that that shouldn't have anything to do with seniority integration). My pay raise will be about 35%.

That doesn't seem like the right number on the raise. Mine is a lot more. How did you come up with 35%?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

That doesn't seem like the right number on the raise. Mine is a lot more. How did you come up with 35%?

You're right. Mine is actually 40%. I forgot to factor in that SWA gets a contractual pay raise before 4/1/12. I was using the current number.

 

[nwa211733]

I am not a SWA pilot, but a swa mechanic. What happens if it becomes a us air and america west. Will the company continue the SOC? Have you seen the spring schedule for ATL gpt 2011? SWA flying in and they are reducing AT schedule in ATL. And SWA getting all the 737 that were on order from Airtran. It doesn't look pretty.

SWA has always stapled the new company, and the mentality is still there. But with then new laws who knows what is fair and equitable? At our end we are facing the same thing in tech ops. I like the 4/1 because we are 4 times larger from DOH. Every 4 years for one SWA year. I agree someone won't like that. Your contracts are more complicated than ours. But, it boils down to seniority, as SWA we don't get the extra cash or raises or bonus, or hit the lottery. Airtran does. My buddy that flies for Delta tells me SWA is the highest paid 737 guys. Do we have two separate unions for Flight OPS and for Tech Ops? Republic and NWA was Alpa, NWA fenced Republic from flying the widebodies for 10 years, same union.

What's the answer, arbritration doesn't always rule in your favor. If oneside shows progression and the otherside doesn't, how do think will they rule? Or it could be a suprise.

 

[Maurus]

According to some pilots at SWA, Management may be looking at dumping the ATN pilots onto the street if they make too big of a fuss. It has happened before. It can happen again. If that is the case a US Airways/America west would be preventable. Would definitely suck for ATN pilots though.

 

[jtrain609]

According to some pilots at SWA, Management may be looking at dumping the ATN pilots onto the street if they make too big of a fuss. It has happened before. It can happen again. If that is the case a US Airways/America west would be preventable. Would definitely suck for ATN pilots though.

And keep the planes? Not possible because of scope language.

 

[WacoFan]

And keep the planes? Not possible because of scope language.

Why couldn't they keep the certificates seperate, lease ATN 737's to SWA and use the ATL, LGA and other things that they wanted? Put the pilots on the street with preferential interviews/hiring AFTER a SWA interview. Take the 717's and lease them to Allegiant (if Allegiant will do it, they like owning their cheap gas hogs). I heard that SWA/SWAPA came back with a much more draconian SLI after the first one was voted down but not sure of the details.

 

[jtrain609]

Why couldn't they keep the certificates seperate, lease ATN 737's to SWA and use the ATL, LGA and other things that they wanted? Put the pilots on the street with preferential interviews/hiring AFTER a SWA interview. Take the 717's and lease them to Allegiant (if Allegiant will do it, they like owning their cheap gas hogs). I heard that SWA/SWAPA came back with a much more draconian SLI after the first one was voted down but not sure of the details.

Because they'll lose out in the end if they do.

This isn't 'Nam, there are rules.

 

[derg]

I fly with a pilot who used to work for Muse Air. Don't even get him started.