Unions???

O&M said:
Well, I guess the first question is: How do you define being "treated well?" I ask this because in my experience, I have found that a good people many have some pretty unreasonable expectations of their employer. Its as if they don't understand why they were hired, or what the purpose of their being hired was. So, I ask you, what do you define as being "treated well?"
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I would define it as at least making enough money to be able to support yourself, living on your own, in the cheapest part of the country you can commute from, much less in base. Giving a realistic aquisition of sick time, 19 hours a year doesn't cut it, that won't even cover one trip, and no discipline for calling in sick or fatigued.
 
You know, what we really need is a Union for business owners. All these employees get together to intimidate and scare other employees and management in the form of unions...what we need is a Union for business owners! Oh yeah...I forgot...we have the Republican party. Nevermind.
 
And the Chamber of Commerce, and the Air Transport Association and the Regional Airline Association and the god knows whatever other associations exist in other industries.
 
Why are there Unions? Same reason we have the United States of America.

From the preamble to the U.S. Constitution:

"We the People, in order to form a more Perfect Union..."

Unions exist to protect the safety and rights of the individuals bound by a common purpose therein. Unionization is the business model variant of the idea that founded this country. Individuals may not decide what is right for all, and all should have a voice. It's due process designed to prevent the exploitation of the few by the powerful many, or the many by the powerful few.
 
Firebird2XC said:
Why are there Unions? Same reason we have the United States of America.

From the preamble to the U.S. Constitution:

"We the People, in order to form a more Perfect Union..."

Unions exist to protect the safety and rights of the individuals bound by a common purpose therein. Unionization is the business model variant of the idea that founded this country. Individuals may not decide what is right for all, and all should have a voice. It's due process designed to prevent the exploitation of the few by the powerful many, or the many by the powerful few.
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I agree with you as far as representing labor; they do serve a good, noble purpose. However, my issue with unions comes when they go beyond that, and become so powerful that they have the ability to steer the course of the business. While everyone has the right to fair representation, those who found companies have a right to conduct business as they wish within the bounds of the law (and they'll have to deal with the consequences if their business model is flawed). After all, "We the People" doesn't just extend to the working class; it extends to everyone, up to the top 1% of income earners at the tops of major corporations.

I'm always on the wrong end of this debate for some reason. :)
 
dasleben said:
I agree with you as far as representing labor; they do serve a good, noble purpose. However, my issue with unions comes when they go beyond that, and become so powerful that they have the ability to steer the course of the business. While everyone has the right to fair representation, those who found companies have a right to conduct business as they wish within the bounds of the law (and they'll have to deal with the consequences if their business model is flawed). After all, "We the People" doesn't just extend to the working class; it extends to everyone, up to the top 1% of income earners at the tops of major corporations.

I'm always on the wrong end of this debate for some reason. :)
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You're not on the wrong end. You're on the adult end.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Yeah, that's right. People who stand up for dignity in the work place are just children. :rolleyes:
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Hey, I stand up for dignity in the workplace; I'm a card-carrying Teamster who pays his dues every month. I have absolutely no problem with unions for the most part, and I think at my current company, they're doing some good. But at the end of the day, the company owes me nothing, just as I owe them nothing; nobody holds a gun to my head and tells me to show up for work. If we don't get a contract, this place will have a staffing crisis, and that's on them.

"Equality" doesn't refer to economic equality, it refers to the fact that all people are free to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It doesn't matter if you're the lowest of the low earner or the highest of the high; we all have the right to be as productive or unproductive as we wish. The reason we have big jets to fly at our respective airlines is because people had the drive to form companies, create new products, and pursue a profit. Why should I have the right to lay a claim to any of their money, the money I didn't work for?

I've made my thoughts very clearly on this in previous threads; I don't see a reason to go further into it.
 
dasleben said:
The reason we have big jets to fly at our respective airlines is because people had the drive to form companies, create new products, and pursue a profit. Why should I have the right to lay a claim to any of their money, the money I didn't work for?
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You mean the money that you made for the company?

Lets look at the airline I work for AMR. If CR Smith was still CEO I woud see your point. He was the man that formed the company., but Gerard Arpey is nothing more then a hired gun who is about getting the biggest payday. Now who do you think brings in more revenue: Arpey or the pilots?
 
Gonzo said:
You mean the money that you made for the company?

Lets look at the airline I work for AMR. If CR Smith was still CEO I woud see your point. He was the man that formed the company., but Gerard Arpey is nothing more then a hired gun who is about getting the biggest payday. Now who do you think brings in more revenue: Arpey or the pilots?
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CR Smith may not be there, but that doesn't give you leave to tear down a company someone else has created. You and I were hired to do a job; that job is to fly airplanes. Showing up for work does not give us the inherent right to steer the ship. We have the right to negotiate improvements, just as we have the right to leave if those improvements don't materialize.
 
dasleben said:
CR Smith may not be there, but that doesn't give you leave to tear down a company someone else has created. You and I were hired to do a job; that job is to fly airplanes. Showing up for work does not give us the inherent right to steer the ship. We have the right to negotiate improvements, just as we have the right to leave if those improvements don't materialize.
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Outside of CR Smith and maybe Crandall no one has created anything at AMR for sometime. My CEO (Arpey) is just like me, in the fact that neither of us helped create AMR. We are both hired guns. Do you think he cares about AMR any more then the every day line pilots? Fact is if AMR fails tomorrow unlike the line pilots, Arpey is going to be OK. So in a way we do have a inherent right to look after the company more so then he does. Is it OK for him to tear down AMR?
 
dasleben said:
CR Smith may not be there, but that doesn't give you leave to tear down a company someone else has created. You and I were hired to do a job; that job is to fly airplanes. Showing up for work does not give us the inherent right to steer the ship. We have the right to negotiate improvements, just as we have the right to leave if those improvements don't materialize.
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Unions concede to pay cuts post 9/11 to avoid BK, yet all the AA pilots probably want is that pay back that they were making before while Arpey and crew deserve bonus after bonus for a company that loses billions?

If anyone wants to know why unions are needed, here is a perfect example as to how businesses formed public relations firms to fight for legislation limits on arbitration (McDonalds coffee suing) ended up to their advantage.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/jun/27/us-supreme-court-rape
 
Gonzo said:
Outside of CR Smith and maybe Crandall no one has created anything at AMR for sometime. My CEO (Arpey) is just like me, in the fact that neither of us helped create AMR. We are both hired guns. Do you think he cares about AMR any more then the every day line pilots? Fact is if AMR fails tomorrow unlike the line pilots, Arpey is going to be OK. So in a way we do have a inherent right to look after the company more so then he does. Is it OK for him to tear down AMR?
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Dynasty22 said:
Unions concede to pay cuts post 9/11 to avoid BK, yet all the AA pilots probably want is that pay back that they were making before while Arpey and crew deserve bonus after bonus for a company that loses billions?

If anyone wants to know why unions are needed, here is a perfect example as to how businesses formed public relations firms to fight for legislation limits on arbitration (McDonalds coffee suing) ended up to their advantage.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/jun/27/us-supreme-court-rape
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Oh, you guys. :)

Negotiate, find a better job, or withhold services. That's your privilege as free citizens in a free market. Nobody is forcing you to show up to work if it's that bad.

However, don't think for a second any one of us has a right to sit on the Board of Directors simply because we show up to a job we took under our own free will. Does any JC user have the right to demand that Doug offer him admin privileges just because he signs up and contributes? Absolutely not. However, if JC becomes a poorly-run and caustic environment, we're all free to leave or air our grievances. We do not have the right to tear down the website. If Doug wants to run the website in that way, again, that's his privilege.

Everyone talks about equality and freedom, but there's a serious double-standard on a lot of these threads; to whom do those freedoms extend? Everyone, or just the working class? Does anyone have the freedom to tell another free person how to run his business? Does your freedom extend so far that you can abridge the freedom of others?

Am I really that off-base, here?
 
"Negotiate, find a better job, or withhold services. That's your privilege as free citizens in a free market."

I'd agree with you if it was really a free market. The RLA changes the picture and muddies the water. The RLA gives management the upper hand and unions counter that. That just how it is. I love my union.
 
dasleben said:
Oh, you guys. :)

Negotiate, find a better job, or withhold services. That's your privilege as free citizens in a free market. Nobody is forcing you to show up to work if it's that bad.
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Yes, they are. Withholding services is a job action under the Railway Labor Act. This act of congress, beloved by all corporations fortunate enough to qualify to operate under it, forces you to show up to work, failure to do so can result in fines or even jail time.
 
dasleben said:
Oh, you guys. :)

Negotiate, find a better job, or withhold services(AA pilots tried this one, did work out to well from them). That's your privilege as free citizens in a free market. Nobody is forcing you to show up to work if it's that bad.
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Or takeover the company. (We can do that in a free market)

dasleben said:
However, don't think for a second any one of us has a right to sit on the Board of Directors simply because we show up to a job we took under our own free will. Does any JC user have the right to demand that Doug offer him admin privileges just because he signs up and contributes? Absolutely not. However, if JC becomes a poorly-run and caustic environment, we're all free to leave or air our grievances. We do not have the right to tear down the website. If Doug wants to run the website in that way, again, that's his privilege.

Everyone talks about equality and freedom, but there's a serious double-standard on a lot of these threads; to whom do those freedoms extend? Everyone, or just the working class? Does anyone have the freedom to tell another free person how to run his business? Does your freedom extend so far that you can abridge the freedom of others?

Am I really that off-base, here?
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You are off base. We are not taking about Joe's Gas Station or Joe's Wings where the owner is also the person running the company. AMR is not Gerard Arpey's company. It is the share holders company, it is the company of the 100,000+ employees that helped make AMR what it is today. Many have been with AMR longer then Arpey.
 
DE727UPS said:
"Negotiate, find a better job, or withhold services. That's your privilege as free citizens in a free market."

I'd agree with you if it was really a free market. The RLA changes the picture and muddies the water. The RLA gives management the upper hand and unions counter that. That just how it is. I love my union.
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The RLA is a really crappy piece of legislation, I agree. We're going through the process right now at my current company (strike ballot just came out).

SpiraMirabilis said:
Yes, they are. Withholding services is a job action under the Railway Labor Act. This act of congress, beloved by all corporations fortunate enough to qualify to operate under it, forces you to show up to work, failure to do so can result in fines or even jail time.
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So if you just didn't show up to work tomorrow, they'd send the police after you? :yup:

Gonzo said:
Or takeover the company. (We can do that in a free market)
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I agree. So, raise the capital and do so. :) You don't have an inherent right to it, however.

Gonzo said:
You are off base. We are not taking about Joe's Gas Station or Joe's Wings where the owner is also the person running the company. AMR is not Gerard Arpey's company. It is the share holders company, it is the company of the 100,000+ employees that helped make AMR what it is today. Many have been with AMR longer then Arpey.
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You've made an interesting point, here. Do the employees actually own a controlling interest in AMR?

And just for the record, I'm off-base because I say you don't have the right to infringe on other people's freedoms in the way they do business, as long as that business is done lawfully?
 
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