KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
No one can prove or disprove that anymore than one can prove or disprove the existence of a god.
Unions???
- Thread starter Pilotforhire587
- Start date
No one can prove or disprove that anymore than one can prove or disprove the existence of a god.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
"Sometimes, not always." Sometimes the unionized carrier pays more, but not always.
The unions don't hold wages up like Atlas holding the world on his shoulders. When I was furloughed from XJT and went to fly the 402, I experienced a significant pay raise compared to the unionized carrier. Why?
Quite simply, the company had to pay that to keep their labor around. They had to pay significantly more than regional airlines in order to keep the regionals from poaching pilots (though they still did). If they paid $20,000/year to fly that 402, they'd never move an aircraft. The idea that the unions artificially hold pay up to a certain level is a fallacy; the basic laws of supply and demand do not change when a union comes on property. I can cite a number of examples of non-union companies paying significantly higher wages than unionized carriers. Conversely, I can also give a number of examples of unionized carriers that pay significantly more than their non-union counterparts.
The ever-present movement from low-paying companies to higher-paying companies will always occur, regardless if they're unionized.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
I choose not to believe that, simply because my personal experience tells me otherwise (in some cases, but not all cases!).
By the way, I know Lear and Beechjet pilots making close to, if not over, six figures. Demand for pilots has been very low the past several years, making movement into those high-paying jobs very difficult. The supply of pilots very much exceeds the demand, and in this case, wages go down to what you see today. When demand increases, wages will increase or the companies will not be able to adequately staff. This market fluctuation happens with unionized carriers as well, though it's not directly caused by the presence or absence of union leadership.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Just to clarify my point: The reason the regionals poached quite successfully from that company was because of aircraft type, not pay or QOL (going from that 402 to an RJ was a significant pay cut).
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
You're proving my point, and you don't even realize it. The reason that the 402 operator has to pay $50k to recruit pilots is that most pilots would, given the choice, rather fly a regional jet for a part 121 airline. The only thing that might make some of them choose to do otherwise would be significantly better pay at the 402 operator. So, if the average regional FO makes $40k, then the 402 operator needs to pay $50k to lure some of them away. But, why does the average regional FO make $40k in the first place? Because the pilots had the leverage, through their union, to negotiate that pay. The market itself would not support that pay on its own without union intervention. So, because that union was able to negotiate $40k for the average RJ FO, the 402 operator has to pay more. Now, if the union did not exist, and the market alone dictated pay for the RJ pilot, what would he make? Well, during the '90s, we had thousands of pilots pay for their own training at Comair, ASA, Continental Express, and many other regional carriers. After paying for their own training ($10-25k), they then had the "privilege" of making about $15k per year, which was incredibly low pay even for that day. With most of the regional carriers still in the infancy of having unions, they hadn't worked the pay up higher yet. And despite this, thousands of pilots, all with more than 1500 hours, many with far more, paid for their own training and accepted these low paying jobs. Why? Because they loved to fly. The same reason that every pilot gets into flying. It blinds people of their sense of self worth.
So, lacking the strength of unions at the regional carriers, we can safely assume that the average RJ FO would make little more than the average Jetstream FO of the '90s. We'll call it $20k (probably generous). With that wage at the regionals, how much does the 402 operator then have to pay to entice people away? Probably not more than $30k. Probably less.
You see, although unions operate within the market to a certain extent, they also drive wages far higher than the market would support on its own. They operate within the market to the extent that they can't make demands that would make their companies uncompetitive in their industry. But they operate outside of the market to the extent that they can modify it by driving average wages up across the industry through pattern bargaining. In other words, the existence of the union in and of itself artificially inflates the market.
I have!
It's not pretty.
I liked how we had a "policy and procedures" manual that only really applied when it was a cost-free item.
Or how we didn't have a re-test policy so if you had a bad day in the sim, at any point, you're applying for Truckmasters that same afternoon, and that happened, A LOT!
Or my favorite: "You're Marquette based now. Your first rotation is tomorrow and well, the last flight left, maybe you can jumpseat down to ORD and then ask Eagle for a ride. I know it's 7pm but we're short on captains so good luck"
I'll tell my story about the time on the Safety Council and when I almost got suspended (captain did!) for not being able to get into a VFR-only/non-towered airport at 800 OVC and 2 miles visibility.
Pilotforhire587
Lycra Man
Sounds like you already have your mind made up, bro. What more do you want, exactly?
Well I have my mind made up, I am looking to find more in depth ideas to convince a friend of mine who is UBER antiunion.
Mike H
Well-Known Member
if a club doesn't work, you'll probably need a gun
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
A union is not so much different from a corporation in the sense that they are both an association of individuals (union members, shareholders) whose common goal could not be realized separately.
Something I learned from being an old man.
Some people just can't be convinced even of universal thruths like the earth revolving around the sun.
He needs to have an epiphany and only then will he understand, but until then, drink beer, laugh too often and raise those flaps in the flare.
Pilotforhire587
Lycra Man
I completely agree with that point, but if a company can aford to pay a 402 pilot 50k a year why can't the regionals who have 10x's or more the number of passenger pay near that amount. I understand that the 402 job is single pilot vs a 2 pilot crew at the regionals but when you look at the pay per seat its not even close. You can say that the cost of operation of a 402 is a lot cheaper than a jet, it is, but when you look at things percentage wise things don't come close.
Pilotforhire587
Lycra Man
Thats why I make 20k right now as a second year FO. We have been ALPA for three years now and are still working on the first contract, the pay and all the other issues we have won't change until we get that contract. Back before the Dash, in the 1900 days my company used to be the place to go to as far as regionals were concerned. Great QOL for everyone and some of the senior captains were coming close to six figures, FLYING 1900's!!! People used to retire on this job. Like Dasleben I am not gonna air dirty laundy but really, how will we get the good life back. We have to stnad as one in the union to work for it. I doubt we will ever get it all but I hope we can get most. Only time will tell
Too true Doug, maybe I am trying to hard as I do in many aspects of life.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
It's a 2 pilot crew, I believe?
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Are you actually able to read what your wrote, aloud, with a straight face?
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Unions do over-inflate pay. They are not a true market indicator. The worst are government unions...don't even get me started. They have a monopoly on the public, we have no other choice but to pay their asking pay and benefits. (see NYC transit strike)
What has happened over the course of time for pilots, is the unions artificially raising the pay at the top end, and everyone willing to do whatever they can to get there. That depressed wages at the low end. Finally, you are seeing some balancing as commuter wages increase, and major pay decrease. After all, we all fly airplanes. The size shouldn't matter that much as far as pay is concerned.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
I don't know of any corporate flight departments that are unionized, do you? Yet pay for equipment varies drastically. I think you can see for yourself that unions aren't the reason why some people get paid more, and others less.
As far as that being a prosperous time, yes you are correct. But don't forget that pretty much every single other nation that once had manufacturing plants was reduced to rubble. Japan, UK, Germany, Russia, etc. The unions had power because America was producing. News flash, we don't produce anything anymore.
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
1/2 the freighters out there operating under 125, 135 and 121 supplimental
I think a union has it's place if mgmt deserves it. However, the unions today have forgotten their place have a lot of negative aspects to them now as they have become over reaching cash machines more interested in their own politics than representing the pilots that pay their salaries.
aka Shuttle America / Chatauqua merger
Teamsters 747 has people in jail for various crimes
unions protect pilots that should have been terminated.
pullup
Homewrecker
Source?
Well, I guess the first question is: How do you define being "treated well?" I ask this because in my experience, I have found that a good people many have some pretty unreasonable expectations of their employer. Its as if they don't understand why they were hired, or what the purpose of their being hired was. So, I ask you, what do you define as being "treated well?"