Pinacolaba SLI

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I think other than the loudmouth 9E reps who go against ALPA's wishes by posting in thses forums

9E reps post misinformation in internet message boards AGAINST ALPA National etiquette.

I can't speak to what is "misinformation" or not, but I can tell you that ALPA International has no policy about reps posting on web boards. That's up to each individual MEC to decide for themselves.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Of course not, anything that helps gain your pilot group at the expense of ours (9E) is something you wouldn't feel bad about. If the situation was the other way around, you'd sing a different tune.

I really don't care how they do it! You'll still say clear right for me.

You make it sound like this is the defining moment of what date of hire is, and it is NOT. I got $400/week paid every Friday and was in the Pinnacle's HR and payroll system. As far as I'm concerned, I meet the ALPA's guidelines for date of hire.

How much a week did you have to mail back to JetU?

That CBA was signed in 1999. So currently, about 140 pilots on property had a say in this deal when it happened. The overwhelming majority (85%) had no say in this since we were not here in 1999.

So the other 1100 or so pilots had no say in taking a job that was below average the day the contract was signed? You had no say in where you worked? Express I just came to your house and snatched you as a pilot slave?

Alright, if you are at Mesaba, I will argue that you chose to go to an airline that had a shrinking future. Delta does not want the noisy props, and they've made it clear the Saabs will be parked. If you went to Colgan, then I will argue you chose to go to an airline that grew at the expense of another airline, with that other airline's money, and now it's time to give back to the collective group.

I had accepted life with a pilot group of 600-700. The last thing I wanted was to have our upcoming section 6 negotiations wasted giving two pilot groups what we have had for 6+ years. If you think you would have had a contract like this on your own keep dreaming. 9E continued to get blissful people like you to show up with your contract so why bother giving you guys a new one? Now that there is a JCBA it benefits every one especially 9E getting scope. That being said I will give you the fact that this merger probably benefits the JR 9E people and the SR XJ people the least.

 

[Tram]

Everyone on my side of the isle says that's bogus and that language in the LOA was a mistake and it was addressing ONLY pass benefits..

That's freaking asinine.

Tram I think you are asking my position on this quote "and you guys agreed to upon working here". I didn't say that very well, I should have said Pinnacle not here. You were hired, got your date after the PC and life continued for anywhere from 1-20 years. Now the merger is coming together and you'd like it put down the correct way, the same way as everyone else, the way we have it already. I think it's been brought up multiple times online, but certainly in talking to pilots on the line, that Pinnacles way was fine for them for years, why change it now?

It was ok at the time because everyone one there was on a level playing field. We ALL had our dates assigned in the same way..

Why does it matter now? Because we are being mixed with a bunch of guys who may very well be "at our seniority" but will be given X amount of months ahead of us..

I'm sure all of XJ and Colgan would have no issues being moved down in seniority to match their 9E "brothers", right?

Did our MEC honestly say that we bought Pinnacle? Was that something written down or just someone said Nagel said that?

I'm not a huge "pics or it didn't happen" type.. Someone I trust, told me a member of the XJ MEC said it and that the "rest of the MEC sure seemed to agree with him.."

I like Nagel, I like kidding him, he's a bulldog and he's smarter than me, and I have a hard time believing he'd say that unless he was making a joke or that quote is parsed from something he wrote.

I don't know Nagel from Adam.. I don't care who he is.. If he said it, it was an ignorant statement. The fact is, 9E bought XJ.. 9E bought Colgan. Both airlines were purchased because of the sweat of 9E pilots and employees.

As far as who is screwing who, it does seem like right now XJ and Pinnacle aren't talking, but the union guys I talk to have issues with certain people, JH, but they don't have any argument with Pinnacle. The LOA mistake is a good catch, run with it, but why mess around with it now when Bloch's going to issue the list and we can move forward. It's not like this thing is going to have ANYTHING to do with DOH if you believe the Pinnacle reps. No one has done DOH in like 20 years right?

I've tried to stay as far removed from the entire process as I can.. There is no reason for me to care, as I have zero say so.. I can rant and rave and type and blah blah blah and nothing I do, short of killing guys ahead of me or blowing myself away will change my seniority.. I'm not down with those options, so I choose not to mess with it..

Tram it seems like you think I'm saying eff the Pinnacle pilots LOA thing..

Only because your posts seem to say that.. over and over again.. Have you said it outright? No.. Has it come across that way? Yep..

Hopefully it won't matter.. I want off this cotton-picking airline pilot merry go 'round at my first opportunity...

 

[Tram]

You are correct sir. Then every one can argue over who the "people in the suits" are. I think other than the loudmouth 9E reps who go against ALPA's wishes by posting in thses forums and spread misinformation everyone else know's what is going on. The adjusted DOH isn't the biggest issue. If it was is as simple as two seperate DOH and Bloch had to legal lists he could make his decision. It can't be that hard to provide a legal list with out errors. We can't blame Bloch for not having 3 correct lists.

9E reps picket for their own sect 6 while in the last day of Joint negotiations AGAINST ALPA National.
9E reps post misinformation in internet message boards AGAINST ALPA National etiquette.

This comes down to 9E's MEC being incompetent and having major errors on the list other than DOH. Hopefully when it's all said and done people won't vote for that stupidity any more.

On a personal note I don't feel bad for people at 9E if their DOH is after training for SLI. You are(were) not paid full monthly guarantee until after training is completed. Your MEC agreed to this. YOUR pilot group voted for that MEC. You chose to go to that show of a company that does things a certain way and then whine about them. I guess JetU/Regional Airline Academy/Gulfstream/other pilot mill told you that being a "jet" First Ofiicer is all that mattered so why bother looking to see how a company treats you compared to the rest of the industry.

I'm just frustrated at the stupidity and will hold nothing against any one once this is complete. I would like to see it complete so we can ALL move forward.

That's a heck of a post to end it like you did..

"F you.. F you.. F you..

I hope we can all be friends..

Walter.."

 

[BobDDuck]

Outside question...

Is there a Pinnacle Holdings that owns Pinnacle Airlines (and now the MSA and CJC certificates) or is it Pinnacle Airlines that owns all three certificates?

 

[Cruise]

Outside question...

Is there a Pinnacle Holdings that owns Pinnacle Airlines (and now the MSA and CJC certificates) or is it Pinnacle Airlines that owns all three certificates?

PNCL Holdings

 

[BobDDuck]

Well then Pinnacle Airlines didn't buy jack. You're parent company bought two other companies and while they may have done it off of your hard earned profits (which maybe you could have then done a better job of holding on to), that's very different than being the acquiring company yourself.

Speaking from experience here my self.

 

[SmitteyB]

Pinnacle Airlines Corp.

 

[Tram]

I did it again.. This site bring me more heartburn than the industry itself..

You guys can have at it. I'm unsubscribing to any of these moan/bicker fests..

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Well then Pinnacle Airlines didn't buy jack. You're parent company bought two other companies and while they may have done it off of your hard earned profits (which maybe you could have then done a better job of holding on to), that's very different than being the acquiring company yourself.

Speaking from experience here my self.

Bob Duck, at first there was just Pinnacle Airlines. Now Pinnacle by itself could not just buy Colgan because then our scope would apply and we'd have to operate the planes. So how do you avoid that? It's simple. Create a shell. Suddenly, I found out that I work for Pinnacle Airlines Inc. , and my holding company was Pinnacle Airlines Corp. Then Pinnacle Airlines Corp bought Colgan. This way, they sidestepped around our contract. It was basically just a holding shell game. For all practical purposes, what Tram is saying is true.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Pinnacle Corp. existed long before the Colgan acquisition was even dreamed of. I want to say it was back in 2003, although I can't remember the exact date. Holding companies are common for airlines (and other industries, for that matter).

 

[Stryder]

Pinnacle Corp. existed long before the Colgan acquisition was even dreamed of. I want to say it was back in 2003, although I can't remember the exact date. Holding companies are common for airlines (and other industries, for that matter).

I dont think thats correct. If I remember right corp was created in 2007 or so just before colgan was purchased. It was around the same time that nwa was thinking of starting newco to whip saw the nwa pilots. That company ended up becoming compass.

I remember when corp was created and I was hired in jan 06. When they announced it we all knew something was up. pt moved to corp and cs was put in charge of pinnacle. They made separate offices and everything. Corp was created for the sole purpose of buying colgan.

 

[jynxyjoe]

That's freaking asinine.

Well, keep in mind I think some of the argument, while simple to you, is much more complex to us. There is a JCBA vs a SLI and this LOA stuff is in the JCBA. So for me I see the LOA and the SLI as two different things and that's how it's explained to me. I sounds like, after talking to Steve, this LOA (JCBA) and SLI are a little closer tied together than I understood.

It was ok at the time because everyone one there was on a level playing field. We ALL had our dates assigned in the same way..

Yeah, Steve was trying to explain all that to me. I'll tell you this, it made sense when I talked to Steve about it, but then I tried to repeat it back to my own guys (line pilots and union guys) and I couldn't even explain it back. I'm not a dumb guy, but this is a confusing setup for me and anyone not familiar.

This is a tough one for us to get our head around when it's late in the game. Unfortunately unless you have the patience to make up a excel sheet or something it's tough for me to remember which hire date you used for which thing. Of course Steve is probably like, "Why did I take time to explain to Joe when he's got a memory of a goldfish".

Why does it matter now? Because we are being mixed with a bunch of guys who may very well be "at our seniority" but will be given X amount of months ahead of us..

The reason I said what does it matter now was that I wasn't completely informed on all parts of your bidding and which DOH that is. I figured we'd get through the SLI and afterwards if we could get you some more vacation or a longevity jump or something then mo' money mo' money. That's my whole, it's not my money comment.

Steve helped a LOT explaining some of that. When I was able to bounce some of that off my rep he talked about the ALPA merger and thingy stuff which defines DOH. So now I'm more confused but I have more info. Somehow I missed out on the significance of that ALPA merger and something thing. I understand better now.

I'm sure all of XJ and Colgan would have no issues being moved down in seniority to match their 9E "brothers", right?

Actually I think a lot of us, late in the game, still don't understand the all the problems with this stuff. I know I wasn't the only one that didn't understand the significance of all these statements and for that I apologize. I thought I was brought up to speed but it turns out I was still misinformed. Turns out I'm a little more of a verbal learner than a written down text book learner than I thought. Although I can still hardly explain you're DOH/PC date thing still

I'm not a huge "pics or it didn't happen" type.. Someone I trust, told me a member of the XJ MEC said it and that the "rest of the MEC sure seemed to agree with him.."

Well I understand that completely, AND I agree. It sounds like, at this point anyhow, the two union groups aren't on speaking terms and are so angry at each other its a venom spitting contest.

I don't know Nagel from Adam.. I don't care who he is.. If he said it, it was an ignorant statement. The fact is, 9E bought XJ.. 9E bought Colgan. Both airlines were purchased because of the sweat of 9E pilots and employees.

No prob man, no argument except maybe corp vs: airline on who bought who. I was at Colgan when we got bought and now here. Don't need to explain to me about who was bought.

I've tried to stay as far removed from the entire process as I can.. There is no reason for me to care, as I have zero say so.. I can rant and rave and type and blah blah blah and nothing I do, short of killing guys ahead of me or blowing myself away will change my seniority.. I'm not down with those options, so I choose not to mess with it..

LOL. I've got some guns in the safe?

Only because your posts seem to say that.. over and over again.. Have you said it outright? No.. Has it come across that way? Yep..

I think I UNDERSTAND why it comes across that way. Until now I was letting off verbal/written grenades without knowing it. I realized that was happening and that's why I took time to call Steve. It makes a lot more sense now, although I'm more confused than ever.

Hopefully it won't matter.. I want off this cotton-picking airline pilot merry go 'round at my first opportunity...

Don't we all.

My UNDERSTANDING, and let's keep in mind I'm still confused, is that the LOA section V won't matter for the SLI. So we can do the SLI even if Mesaba raised some legal challenge. I've been told that's not the case. I've been told we didn't raise any legal challenge, we did explain the nature of the change in the JCBA (LOA) to Bloch and how it hurts us and Colgan. There is a lot more to that letter which CC posted so I can't say I'm terribly proud of the Pinnacle union guys for putting that out, HOWEVER, as Higney said it is ALL politics and both sides are "loaded for bear" or whatever.

The good news is, if Bloch does what we think he will do, we don't do anything and then after the SLI we do to the company what you did to us and smile at them with sharp teeth. Of course, that is only one possibility.

I feel like I'm ranting again.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I dont think thats correct. If I remember right corp was created in 2007 or so just before colgan was purchased. It was around the same time that nwa was thinking of starting newco to whip saw the nwa pilots. That company ended up becoming compass.

I remember when corp was created and I was hired in jan 06. When they announced it we all knew something was up. pt moved to corp and cs was put in charge of pinnacle. They made separate offices and everything. Corp was created for the sole purpose of buying colgan.

Nope. Here is the info from the Pinnacle Corp. web site:

"In order to more accurately reflect our objectives as an airline, Express Airlines I, Inc., officially changed its name to Pinnacle Airlines, Inc., effective May 8, 2002. Pinnacle Airlines Corp., the current holding company, was incorporated in Delaware on January 10, 2002, and became parent company of Pinnacle Airlines, Inc. in January 2003 through a share exchange with NWA Inc. Pinnacle Airlines Corp. became a public company through an initial public offering in November 2003."

NewCo was also earlier than '07. There was talk of that in early '06.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Nope. Here is the info from the Pinnacle Corp. web site:

"In order to more accurately reflect our objectives as an airline, Express Airlines I, Inc., officially changed its name to Pinnacle Airlines, Inc., effective May 8, 2002. Pinnacle Airlines Corp., the current holding company, was incorporated in Delaware on January 10, 2002, and became parent company of Pinnacle Airlines, Inc. in January 2003 through a share exchange with NWA Inc. Pinnacle Airlines Corp. became a public company through an initial public offering in November 2003."

NewCo was also earlier than '07. There was talk of that in early '06.

Delaware... I knew this was all Biden's fault.

 

[Tram]

My UNDERSTANDING, and let's keep in mind I'm still confused, is that the LOA section V won't matter for the SLI. So we can do the SLI even if Mesaba raised some legal challenge. I've been told that's not the case. I've been told we didn't raise any legal challenge, we did explain the nature of the change in the JCBA (LOA) to Bloch and how it hurts us and Colgan. There is a lot more to that letter which CC posted so I can't say I'm terribly proud of the Pinnacle union guys for putting that out, HOWEVER, as Higney said it is ALL politics and both sides are "loaded for bear" or whatever.

I said I wasn't coming back, but I got your PM so I thought there might be a reply here.. so..

I sincerely hope Mesaba doesn't raise any legal challenges. That, like I said before, would be asinine. I would lose boo-koodles of respect for your pilot group if that happens.. I mean, wow. That would be the biggest "Eff over the other guys move" I've seen in a long time..

As far as I know, and for all I know, I could be as wrong as half the "how do you tell if a girl is a virgin in Tennessee jokes", but the change in seniority is just to put everyone on a level playing field..

Let's say you started training at XJ on 01/01/01..
Let's say I started training at 9E on 01/01/01..
Let's say Cruise started training at Colgan on 01/01/01..

You and Cruise get DOH's of 01/01/01.. I get a DOH of 03/08/01..

This was all hunky dory when everyone was among their own company.. Who cares where the dates are? We were all adjusted the same..

Now.. Let's take you, myself and cruise.. Let's mix us.. Either by DOH or relative seniority. If we use relative seniority, it's not a huge deal. If we use DOH, you guys are instantly 2 months senior to me. Is 2 months a big deal?

Well.. Let's see..

Had I started at Corpex 2 months prior to when I did, I'd have 1000 hours 121 turbine PIC in my logbook..
Had I started at 9E 2 months prior to when I did, I'd be a DTW or JFK Captain. I'd also already have been a Captain and been bumped back to FO and then had a chance to upgrade again..

Is 2 months a big deal? Depends on the where you're sitting I guess..

For XJ to even attempt to deny the 9E guys to join this level playing field, causes me to lose loads of respect for anyone under the XJ blanket. Of course, I understand that the whole pilot group doesn't make that choice, it's the MEC's choice. Still makes me want to slap XJ pilots around..

Now, I dunno if that's what XJ is doing, so right now, the only urge I feel to slap anyone around is by their attitudes in the terminals (not sure why we all act like we're hardcore and too good to speak to someone with different colored bars, but we seem to all do it)..

 

[jynxyjoe]

I said I wasn't coming back, but I got your PM so I thought there might be a reply here.. so..

I sincerely hope Mesaba doesn't raise any legal challenges. That, like I said before, would be asinine. I would lose boo-koodles of respect for your pilot group if that happens.. I mean, wow. That would be the biggest "Eff over the other guys move" I've seen in a long time..

As far as I know, and for all I know, I could be as wrong as half the "how do you tell if a girl is a virgin in Tennessee jokes", but the change in seniority is just to put everyone on a level playing field..

Let's say you started training at XJ on 01/01/01..
Let's say I started training at 9E on 01/01/01..
Let's say Cruise started training at Colgan on 01/01/01..

You and Cruise get DOH's of 01/01/01.. I get a DOH of 03/08/01..

This was all hunky dory when everyone was among their own company.. Who cares where the dates are? We were all adjusted the same..

Now.. Let's take you, myself and cruise.. Let's mix us.. Either by DOH or relative seniority. If we use relative seniority, it's not a huge deal. If we use DOH, you guys are instantly 2 months senior to me. Is 2 months a big deal?

Well.. Let's see..

Had I started at Corpex 2 months prior to when I did, I'd have 1000 hours 121 turbine PIC in my logbook..
Had I started at 9E 2 months prior to when I did, I'd be a DTW or JFK Captain. I'd also already have been a Captain and been bumped back to FO and then had a chance to upgrade again..

Is 2 months a big deal? Depends on the where you're sitting I guess..

For XJ to even attempt to deny the 9E guys to join this level playing field, causes me to lose loads of respect for anyone under the XJ blanket. Of course, I understand that the whole pilot group doesn't make that choice, it's the MEC's choice. Still makes me want to slap XJ pilots around..

Now, I dunno if that's what XJ is doing, so right now, the only urge I feel to slap anyone around is by their attitudes in the terminals (not sure why we all act like we're hardcore and too good to speak to someone with different colored bars, but we seem to all do it)..

I think it's works this way. Now I may be wrong so here goes.

Let's say Bloch doesn't give a damn about the LOA 2 section V

He organizes the list how he wants, sounds like DOH hasn't been used in like 20 years so I'll assume we aren't doing that. The list is THEN set, it's locked in place. Then we go back and change the LOA, you aren't going to jump around from where you are. The only thing that might change is you get that vacation 3 months earlier.

Let's say Bloch says, ok we are using DOH, and I'm using these dates and I'm using Pinnacles suggestion of LOA 2 Section V.

He organizes the list how he wants, and then my pilots having a strange case of the stupids goes after this LOA 2 thing. The list has been set so now you get that vacation 3 months later again, like it was before. Can't jump around on the list after the arbitrator decides the order.

I don't think he's even looking at that LOA. He seems to be ignoring all that stuff. The LOA is between the association, all of us, and the company, holding and Pinnacolaba. So if later the company wants the LOA rewritten then that's how it goes. Now our union guys, 1/3 of the association says they were there for the meeting, and they may get called up to answer questions regarding that LOA, but I don't think our union reps are going to go screwing you around because of a misprint that really doesn't effect us. The way I see it, this misprint only effects the company. Bloch will do what he wants to do.

Does that make any sense? Of course I'll add, Pinnacle doesn't think there is a misprint, and for all I know there may not be. If we are all talking about the exact same thing, it seems like there are two fundamentally different stories from us, the association (contractual definition).

 

[WalterSobchak]

For XJ to even attempt to deny the 9E guys to join this level playing field, causes me to lose loads of respect for anyone under the XJ blanket. Of course, I understand that the whole pilot group doesn't make that choice, it's the MEC's choice. Still makes me want to slap XJ pilots around..

Now, I dunno if that's what XJ is doing, so right now, the only urge I feel to slap anyone around is by their attitudes in the terminals (not sure why we all act like we're hardcore and too good to speak to someone with different colored bars, but we seem to all do it)..

All justification aside I don't care what method for DOH they use because I can try and justify my point, but I can agree that the 9E view is also fair and the way to go. The only problem right now is one of the MEC has not handed in a correct seniority list with all its current pilots on it. 9L and XJ have handed theirs in! This is my biggest beef with the 9E MEC(not the average line pilot they are in the same boat). So if you want to do slapping call your MEC tell them to get off JC, APCF, FI, etc and turn the damn list in. The faster this is done the better the company will do and the more likely we are to get more work. God forbid we want the big evil company that writes our checks to be profitable.

Then if you want to slap me feel free, but prepare to lose your lower jaw though.

 

[Tram]

Then if you want to slap me feel free, but prepare to lose your lower jaw though.

LOL...

 

[higney85]

I think it's works this way. Now I may be wrong so here goes.

Let's say Bloch doesn't give a damn about the LOA 2 section V

He organizes the list how he wants, sounds like DOH hasn't been used in like 20 years so I'll assume we aren't doing that. The list is THEN set, it's locked in place. Then we go back and change the LOA, you aren't going to jump around from where you are. The only thing that might change is you get that vacation 3 months earlier.

Let's say Bloch says, ok we are using DOH, and I'm using these dates and I'm using Pinnacles suggestion of LOA 2 Section V.

He organizes the list how he wants, and then my pilots having a strange case of the stupids goes after this LOA 2 thing. The list has been set so now you get that vacation 3 months later again, like it was before. Can't jump around on the list after the arbitrator decides the order.

I don't think he's even looking at that LOA. He seems to be ignoring all that stuff. The LOA is between the association, all of us, and the company, holding and Pinnacolaba. So if later the company wants the LOA rewritten then that's how it goes. Now our union guys, 1/3 of the association says they were there for the meeting, and they may get called up to answer questions regarding that LOA, but I don't think our union reps are going to go screwing you around because of a misprint that really doesn't effect us. The way I see it, this misprint only effects the company. Bloch will do what he wants to do.

Does that make any sense? Of course I'll add, Pinnacle doesn't think there is a misprint, and for all I know there may not be. If we are all talking about the exact same thing, it seems like there are two fundamentally different stories from us, the association (contractual definition).

The longevity will NOT change. The hire date is only for purposes of seniority AND pass travel. The last thing on the table was the longevity and we let that go. It was FULLY known why the date was needing to be changed.

Everyone needs to remember that this has significant political involvement as well. What was said "then", claimed "now", and alluded to "later" all have reasons. The XJ reps would be wise to say "no, that's not right" NOW while representing their pilots, when prior we all knew that we were working to ensure parity. If they claimed "NO, NOT DOING IT" back when the JCBA was being negotiated there would have been significant fallout and the CJC pilots would see a bad side of XJ. Step back and see this through eyes of emotion, then assess the facts. That's politics. The ability to deny a fact still is beyond my comprehension.