Fix to fix

mhcasey

Well-Known Member
Not here to be a SNAP and complain about fix to fix nav. I was cleared to a fix on a victor route for which I had no coordinates (f16) so I start the fix to fix but advise center that I need vectors. I got schwacked in debrief for requesting vectors but have been told since UPT that to accept a fix to fix you need GPS/INS. If this is actually in a reg or advisory circular, can you guys provide some SA?
 
To my knowledge, performing a fix to fix is actually technically illegal these days......you did the right thing
 
Not here to be a SNAP and complain about fix to fix nav. I was cleared to a fix on a victor route for which I had no coordinates (f16) so I start the fix to fix but advise center that I need vectors. I got schwacked in debrief for requesting vectors but have been told since UPT that to accept a fix to fix you need GPS/INS. If this is actually in a reg or advisory circular, can you guys provide some SA?

The F-16 IPs are ghey anyway and wouldn't know an IFR procedure to save their life. Your action was correct. Tell the rest of them to do something productive beyond bingoing out after 5 minutes on station for CAS, and trying on skirts at the department store.
 
To my knowledge, performing a fix to fix is actually technically illegal these days......you did the right thing

Says what?

This is a WOM so far as I can tell. I've had people tell me this new "rule", supposedly based on the new releases of 11-217 and 11-202V3, but so far there hasn't been anyone able to provide actual black and white proof that this is so.

Personally, I don't want to be handcuffed by needing to go to a named fix and needing to have GPS/INS to do it. It is actually very easy to perform a fix-to-fix to a radial/DME accurately, and is a useful tool/skill to have if needed.

Seems to me this is another one of those airmanship skills that are being willfully sidelined in favor of avionics (like people who think TCAS is more important than visual lookout and clearing your flightpath). Navigation without GPS/INS isn't an emergency.
 
Navigation without GPS/INS isn't an emergency.

But believe it or not, this is actually a 10th AF SII right now. Navigation without GPS/INS. The fact that this has to be a reminder enough to have to be put in an SII, is saddening.
 
As I understand the latest AFI 11-217, Fix-to-fix is basically verboten:

AFI 11-217 vol. 1 22 Oct 2010 said:
5.8. Proceeding Direct to a VOR/DME or TACAN Fix. Proceeding directly to a radial/DME fix without RNAV equipment is not a normal form of navigation in the NAS. It can, however, be a useful technique for backing up RNAV equipment or navigating in a loss of communication situation. Bearing and range information from a VOR/DME or TACAN facility is sufficient for navigating direct to any fix within reception range.

5.8.1. In order to legally conform to NAS area navigation procedures and the national route program (NRP) as outlined in FLIP GP chapter 4 and FAA AC 90-91, USAF pilots and air traffic controllers should not file, give, or accept a clearance (as applicable) that requires an aircraft to navigate direct to a radial/DME fix (perform a fix-to-fix) except under the following circumstances:

5.8.1.1. The primary navigation equipment onboard the aircraft is either area navigation (RNAV) or advanced RNAV capable and operating normally.

5.8.1.2. Flight will be conducted where radar monitoring by air traffic control (ATC) is available.

5.8.1.3. Locally defined arrival/departure procedures require the navigation to/from a radial-DME fix for the sequencing of aircraft. Locally defined procedures must be evaluated by TERPS and flight checked if flown in instrument meteorological conditions (IMC) and radar monitoring is not available.

5.8.1.4. Operational necessity dictates (i.e. filing and flying an air refueling track) or conforms to military enroute operations.

5.8.2. When operating in the NAS and given a clearance to proceed to a radial/DME fix, unless the aircraft capability or operations meet one of the parameters defined above, pilots should reply with ―unable‖ and state the appropriate suffix code defined in FLIP GP chapter 4. Under these circumstances, ATC should provide navigation guidance to the radial/DME fix either via radar vectors or an alternate routing.

I am unsure whether the last sentence of 5.8.1 ("except under the following cirmunstances") means that you must satisfy ALL of the requirements of 5.8.1.1-5.8.1.4 in order to fly direct to a FIX, or only 1 of the requirements. My sense is that you need only satisfy 1 of the requirements... which means that you could argue that as long as RADAR monitoring by ATC is available, then a Fix-to-fix is legal... But again, I'm not sure if we are supposed to read that as an "AND" or as an "OR."

So I revert to the tone of the 5.8, 5.8.1 and 5.8.2 which certainly makes it seem like Fix-to-Fix is not intended to be a normal or typical practice, and used only in unusual circumstances (at least as a primary means of navigation) such as with certain navigation or communications failures. Based on that verbiage, if I'm flying truly "/A"... I think that the intent is that I don't accept a fix-to-fix.

Kind of sad, especially after teaching them in the Tweet for several years! Of course, I've seen enough of them severely garbaged up to see why ATC doesn't want us doing them, and after the T-6 swap-over the emphasis on teaching them basically disappeared (at least as of a year and a half ago).

When I left AETC, they were only taught to completion in the SIM. In the airplane, you would only do the first three steps (1. Tune, identify & monitor the NAVAID, 2. Dial in the radial of the fix, 3. Turn between the head of the bearing pointer and the desired radial, favoring the radial if the fix's DME is larger than your current DME, or favoring the head of the bearing pointer if the fix's DME is smaller). After that, they would revert to GPS direct, and use the fix-to-fix as a back-up to the GPS... which can be read as "not at all."
 
Since the vast majority of terminal areas where USAF aircraft fly have this:

Flight will be conducted where radar monitoring by air traffic control (ATC) is available.

...looks to me that it's still okay.
 
So you read the requirements in 5.8.1.1-5.8.1.4 as "OR" as well. You must have A or B or C or D, not A and B and C and D.

Still, how do you reconcile the statements in the first couple of paragraphs ("Proceeding directly to a radial/DME fix without RNAV equipment is not a normal form of navigation in the NAS. It can, however, be a useful technique for backing up RNAV equipment or navigating in a loss of communication situation,")?

To me, 5.8.1.2 conflicts with 5.8.
 
Maybe I am just misunderstanding what the question is, but are you talking about tacan point-to-points? How would that not be legal w/o GPS? I completely understand if you are talking GPS wypts/fixes, but a tacan is a tacan......
 
Maybe I am just misunderstanding what the question is, but are you talking about tacan point-to-points? How would that not be legal w/o GPS? I completely understand if you are talking GPS wypts/fixes, but a tacan is a tacan......

Yup, that's what we are talking about. Either a tacan or a VOR/DME point to point (or "fix to fix"... same difference), but flown without reference to any sort of RNAV/FMS/INS type of equipment while IFR. You just use the bearing pointer and the DME readout. We used to do it all the time, but they've changed the wording in our instrument flight manual (shown above). I think the wording makes it illegal to fly them in the NAS anymore... but I admit that like a lot of things, Momma Air Force screwed the regulation up enough to where it is not exactly clear. I think Hacker's reasoning (that it is still legal in a RADAR environment) is also valid and defensible. I fall back to the first sentence "...is not a normal form of navigation in the NAS," and the overall tone of the section...but Hacker's point about the exception in 5.8.1.2 is also a good point.
 
I had an old crusty DC8 Captain show me how to go direct to a fix using the RMI rose and knowing the DME and radial of the fix by using your fingers on the RMI rose. Neat trick, kills the boredom at times. Is this what you guys are talking about with "fix to fix"?
 
I had an old crusty DC8 Captain show me how to go direct to a fix using the RMI rose and knowing the DME and radial of the fix by using your fingers on the RMI rose. Neat trick, kills the boredom at times. Is this what you guys are talking about with "fix to fix"?

Its a technique of accomplishing the procedure being discussed, so yes. The technique the crusty Capt showed you is commonly known as the "pencil method", as its often done using a pen/pencil as the straight-line.
 
Its a technique of accomplishing the procedure being discussed, so yes. The technique the crusty Capt showed you is commonly known as the "pencil method", as its often done using a pen/pencil as the straight-line.

This conversation brings back memories! My very first JC post back in late '05 or early '06 was about whether any mil. instructors out there knew any other methods to teach this besides the pencil method.
 
This is funny, b/c on the Navy/USMC side, we are ONLY allowed to use TACAN as our primary nav. Yeah we can use GPS/INS/AINS to back us up, but if we were being perfectly legal, we can't do a GPS point to point unless we are cleared "INS direct" or something similar. Not that I haven't used GPS wypt's as primary nav when I'm not receiving a TACAN, but that is the letter of our law anyway. Another interesting discrepancy between the services
 
This is funny, b/c on the Navy/USMC side, we are ONLY allowed to use TACAN as our primary nav. Yeah we can use GPS/INS/AINS to back us up, but if we were being perfectly legal, we can't do a GPS point to point unless we are cleared "INS direct" or something similar. Not that I haven't used GPS wypt's as primary nav when I'm not receiving a TACAN, but that is the letter of our law anyway. Another interesting discrepancy between the services

Wow, that is odd. Is that b/c your GPS isn't IFR certified or something?
 
Wow, that is odd. Is that b/c your GPS isn't IFR certified or something?

Correct....Naval aircraft have yet to be cleared in 3710 to use GPS as primary nav. It is archaic and weird, but it is what it is. Our NATOPS O gave me the explanation recently that this is b/c we don't have RAIMS....all other previous explanations I had heard centered around us not having complete GPS databases, but who knows. We drop JDAM and JSOW legally, so it can't be an issue of accuracy. Also, notably, we have some early lot jets still that are non-GPS....
 
This is funny, b/c on the Navy/USMC side, we are ONLY allowed to use TACAN as our primary nav. Yeah we can use GPS/INS/AINS to back us up, but if we were being perfectly legal, we can't do a GPS point to point unless we are cleared "INS direct" or something similar. Not that I haven't used GPS wypt's as primary nav when I'm not receiving a TACAN, but that is the letter of our law anyway. Another interesting discrepancy between the services

The primary reason is that you will navigate to the boat via Tacan and pt to pt for holding.
 
This is funny, b/c on the Navy/USMC side, we are ONLY allowed to use TACAN as our primary nav. Yeah we can use GPS/INS/AINS to back us up, but if we were being perfectly legal, we can't do a GPS point to point unless we are cleared "INS direct" or something similar. Not that I haven't used GPS wypt's as primary nav when I'm not receiving a TACAN, but that is the letter of our law anyway. Another interesting discrepancy between the services

So, are you are claiming you could do a point to point these days?
 
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