ABC nightline special on pilot fatigue & crash-pads

JOEFRIDAY2 said:
I just have to believe that a person that has spent $100,000+ (soon to be $200,000+) for professional pilot training should be entitled to at least a living wage and a decent quality of life. I just don't like professional pilots being on food stamps and sleeping on couches and in crew rooms. It's un American and it should not be happening in this country.

Joe
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There's another reason you're missing as well (respectfully). We didn't have to spend 100k to learn to fly. Now, I did. I did a very stupid thing and attended Florida Tech and believed a good chunk of the bs about good pay up until I was a senior and realized what I had gotten myself into. The joke of it is, is that still most airlines and practically all corporate gigs still don't require a college degree. This means all we should have paid for was the training itself, which should be about 25 to 40k. We (me and the other jackasses that went to a private school) chose to go to an expensive college because we thought it would actually mean something. Someone that went to Miami Dade community college or who didn't even go to college at all has pretty much the same chances of getting hired as I do. It is our fault that we spent 100k and no one else.

So really, we should have only spent 25 to 40k, and gotten a job that paid about that for the first 3 years we did it. I really think there would be far less complaining if we had done our research and had a realistic view of the industry.
 
Going back to the original topic, I watched the Nightline piece and I actually thought it was fairly effective in making an argument about safety at the regionals. Of course there will always be some misinformation and dramatization in a story like this, but overall it painted a pretty accurate picture of life for a lot of pilots. I know at least a dozen FOs and Captains who take red-eye transcon commutes the night before their trip, meaning that the majority of their sleep occurred sitting in the back of an airplane. You'd be lucky if you could get even 4 hours of uninterrupted sleep like that, and that's assuming you get an actual seat and don't have to ride up front.

This type commute is so common in our industry that we have accepted it as part of the lifestyle and have become desensitized to the fatigue it induces. We know we will be tired and stressed and we get used to it. If these practices (commuting, crash pads, sleeping in crew rooms) were unique to just one airline there would probably be much more concern and demand for change. But because these practices are widespread across the entire industry and considered an intrinsic part of the job they are seen as much more mundane.

Even if there was a sudden and widespread call for change to commuting/domicile-changing work rules among pilots the unions do not have the power to negotiate the type of dramatic overhaul which is necessary. The only way we are going to see change is if a large segment of the general public demands it. And as a previous poster pointed out, this will probably require another fatigue-related crash with fatalities. The sobering truth is that another such crash is almost inevitable, especially as flying really starts to increase again and companies become stretched thin.
 
hambone said:
There's another reason you're missing as well (respectfully). We didn't have to spend 100k to learn to fly. Now, I did. I did a very stupid thing and attended Florida Tech and believed a good chunk of the bs about good pay up until I was a senior and realized what I had gotten myself into. The joke of it is, is that still most airlines and practically all corporate gigs still don't require a college degree. This means all we should have paid for was the training itself, which should be about 25 to 40k. We (me and the other jackasses that went to a private school) chose to go to an expensive college because we thought it would actually mean something. Someone that went to Miami Dade community college or who didn't even go to college at all has pretty much the same chances of getting hired as I do. It is our fault that we spent 100k and no one else.

So really, we should have only spent 25 to 40k, and gotten a job that paid about that for the first 3 years we did it. I really think there would be far less complaining if we had done our research and had a realistic view of the industry.
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That's "$25,000 to $40,000, debt-free", even. Which is possible, although there will probably be expensive diversions and it will take you longer.

Even if there was a sudden and widespread call for change to commuting/domicile-changing work rules among pilots the unions do not have the power to negotiate the type of dramatic overhaul which is necessary. The only way we are going to see change is if a large segment of the general public demands it. And as a previous poster pointed out, this will probably require another fatigue-related crash with fatalities. The sobering truth is that another such crash is almost inevitable, especially as flying really starts to increase again and companies become stretched thin.
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A golden opportunity to remedy this problem was missed following CJC3407. A rare moment where Congress, the public, and even some of us whiny pilots were on the same page. The public outcry was "Do something!" - whether or not what happened would actually fix the root causes is a whole 'nother thread.

Most sadly and most scarily, I think you're right. We don't change anything in aviation unless someone dies (or you can make more money doing it the new way).
 
Here is what I don't understand, and it is a bit off topic from the rest of the thread. At the end of the story, they stated the "Administrator", aka Randy Babbitt, as admitting to them that he had no idea about these working conditions or how numerous crashpads are. If I remember correctly, he was an airline pilot in the neighborhood of 20 years! Was he just saying that because he knows, like all other pilots, that the media tends to exaggerate the point whenever the word "airplane" is mentioned or is this the attitude of ignorance that got us in this situation in the first place?
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Most sadly and most scarily, I think you're right. We don't change anything in aviation unless someone dies (or you can make more money doing it the new way).
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I've talked to a few NTSB investigators and they've both said the FAA is a graveyard agency. It takes a certain number of bodies before anything can change. A price if you will. Sometimes a hundred, sometimes many more. Swiss Air 111 comes to mind. Nothing ever came of that one either.
 
z987k said:
I've talked to a few NTSB investigators and they've both said the FAA is a graveyard agency. It takes a certain number of bodies before anything can change. A price if you will. Sometimes a hundred, sometimes many more.
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The FAA is like every other regulatory agency in the United States - financially eviscerated and incapable of fulfilling its mandate due to a lack of staffing. We need more Feds in more places doing more inspections and effective enforcement actions, as well as proactively identifying problems, and that need isn't just confined to DOT/FAA—Deepwater Horizon accident, anyone?

(By the way, the current House wants to cut $4 billion from the FAA budget. There goes NextGen!)
 
Autothrust Blue said:
The FAA is like every other regulatory agency in the United States - financially eviscerated and incapable of fulfilling its mandate due to a lack of staffing. We need more Feds in more places doing more inspections and effective enforcement actions, as well as proactively identifying problems, and that need isn't just confined to DOT/FAA—Deepwater Horizon accident, anyone?

(By the way, the current House wants to cut $4 billion from the FAA budget. There goes NextGen!)
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Maybe, but it'd sure help if they actually took steps towards the recommendations in the first place. But it all comes down to money in the end. Always will.
 
Okay, I give in and I'll post a little thought on wages...

One thing I've noticed (like in Spirit's new contract and PNCLs new TA) is that FOs are seeing some wage increases, but the captains aren't getting . The company sort of dangles the short term meat in front of the FOs and divide the pilot group. Now personally, I'm not a scab but I'll take the 20K/yr to start, but I need something to work towards. I would rather see the pay scales range from 18K/yr to 400k/yr for a major than from 30K/yr to 200K/yr were seeing for most majors and legacies now, or the 19K to 85K for most regionals. Its a little disheartening knowing you'll probably never see 10k/month with most 121 carriers nowadays, at least in our current rut were in.

Basically were all forced to gun for the top 10% of spots just to see the real money. By comparison, the top paid neurosurgeons make about 2.0 million dollars per year. Now granted its a different industry w/ more schooling, externship etc etc, but the point is that a fresh neurosurgeon just out of med schools is highly motivated because even if they only make it halfway up the scale, thats still 1 million bucks/year. Halfway up the scale at even the best Legacy is about one tenth of that.

It would be nice to have that same motivation in aviation.
 
HVYMETALDRVR said:
Okay, I give in and I'll post a little thought on wages...

One thing I've noticed (like in Spirit's new contract and PNCLs new TA) is that FOs are seeing some wage increases, but the captains aren't getting . The company sort of dangles the short term meat in front of the FOs and divide the pilot group. Now personally, I'm not a scab but I'll take the 20K/yr to start, but I need something to work towards. I would rather see the pay scales range from 18K/yr to 400k/yr for a major than from 30K/yr to 200K/yr were seeing for most majors and legacies now, or the 19K to 85K for most regionals. Its a little disheartening knowing you'll probably never see 10k/month with most 121 carriers nowadays, at least in our current rut were in.

Basically were all forced to gun for the top 10% of spots just to see the real money. By comparison, the top paid neurosurgeons make about 2.0 million dollars per year. Now granted its a different industry w/ more schooling, externship etc etc, but the point is that a fresh neurosurgeon just out of med schools is highly motivated because even if they only make it halfway up the scale, thats still 1 million bucks/year. Halfway up the scale at even the best Legacy is about one tenth of that.

It would be nice to have that same motivation in aviation.
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but you still do it. you choose to fly, youre motivated. Why does any company owe us more money for a job plenty of people will do at the current pay?
 
SIUav8er said:
but you still do it. you choose to fly, youre motivated. Why does any company owe us more money for a job plenty of people will do at the current pay?
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And plenty more to do it if you or I didn't want to.....a pile of resumes from starry-eyed SJSers. Supply/demand-wise, management doesn't yet have any incentive to offer anything good, and the pilots don't have much of a leg to stand on unfortunately.
 
MikeD said:
And plenty more to do it if you or I didn't want to.....a pile of resumes from starry-eyed SJSers. Supply/demand-wise, management doesn't yet have any incentive to offer anything good, and the pilots don't have much of a leg to stand on unfortunately.
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Fortunately (or unfortunately) flying is still sufficiently cool...
 
SIUav8er said:
but you still do it. you choose to fly, youre motivated. Why does any company owe us more money for a job plenty of people will do at the current pay?
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But why does anyone choose anything? I mean a happy, well paid, motivated, and well rested pilot, is less stressed and highly motivated. I'm not saying the low paid regional pilot definitely isn't motivated, he may or may not be... but I certainly don't want him brooding and pissed off about how long its going to take him to upgrade and make money and how he's getting railroaded by scheduling every trip while were flying a Cat III approach at JFK. The same rule applies to doctors, do you want the new doctor that just got out of med school, is hit with the crappy schedule (doctors aren't legally required to have duty days btw), hates the hospital management, and is thinking about the girl he's trying to hook up with while he is cutting you open? Of course not, you want the well paid, well rested and experienced doctor... and you certainly can't argue a pilot's job is any less important.

Also remember that the flight crew are the hardest employees to replace at an air carrier. Even two years ago when pilots were a dime a dozen (and maybe they still are), theres still a training program that takes weeks for a pilot to complete and costs tens of thousands of dollars before he's on the line, no matter how overqualified he is. Therefore, we should be treated with respect and as mission critical assets in a company since our experience is invaluable and we are much harder to replace. We all know the dangers of throwing underqualified people into the cockpit of a transport category aircraft.
 
SIUav8er said:
Commuting is a choice. the airlines dont force you to live 1500 miles from your base... just sayin!
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Uh Oh, don't go there!

I live 125 miles from a DYING base....

WHEN it closes, and it will, I will be a LONG ways (over 700 miles) from my "new" base.

So, YES, airlines often do!

Easy to sell your house and move these days, as you know, and small jet/turboprop outsourced flying providers close bases and move them at the drop of a hat!

So again, YES, airlines do. Just sayin' ;-)

All hail the Salukis.
 
mojo6911 said:
Didn't watch the piece, but we as a group of pilots are the ones to blame. We are the ones in the unions who do nothing about the piss poor conditions and we are the ones who accept the pay and piss poor work rules, or worse, pay for a job flying a Beech 1900. Management didn't screw us, we screwed ourselves.
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Yep.

ppragman said:
I'm illiterate
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You be is the brav est persin on this websight to admit they he is may have no reading skeels. Haht of to you ser.
 
That piece on abc made it seem like its only a problem at the regionals. Are no major pilots overnighting in crashpads, and crew rooms?
 
Im staring to doubt the supply and demand theory for pilot wages. I work for the railroad, and believe me, there is a line of applicants out the door, specificaly because of the high pay. Its been that way for years, and mgmt has made no attempts to lower wages. Of course the railroads make significantly more money than the airlines.
 
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