SkyWest starts flying for Alaska Airlines

[bike21]

How can you expect skywest people to support one list? skywest is getting 13 a/c growth this year so far this means that more people will upgrade get off reserve and have a better life because of it. If we were one list then those 13 planes would be spread across 7000 pilots. One list would be a windfall for asa and expressjet. Any benefit would be very small to skywest people. If that were to happen I think skywest should get a more favorable intergration.

See the big picture man, it is bigger than you, myself or anyone else. We could do a relative seniortiy merger with some base fences for a few years would help us all in the long run. A 7,000 strong unionized pilot group might just have a chance at getting some good things done for this industry as a whole.

Think about it.

 

[pat84106]

This may come as a shock to your Skywest cheerleading system, but how about because it's the right thing to do? We have some pretty senior guys over at Pinnacle, but nothing like Mesaba. They're probably gonna take a major seniority hit, but it's worth it to avoid the potential whipsaw down the road. Colgan could sr a huge windfall, too, but it's worth it to avoid the company coming to us and saying "We're putting Colgan on these routes. Hit the streets." Ask those Skywest guys that were happily based in ORD if they think avoiding the one list was good for them as ASA/XJT guys are put in their former places. What happens down the road if economies of scale have ASA/XJT doing things cheaper than Skywest? You think the big wigs in SLC are just gonna say "Well, these guys are the home team. They're more expensive now, but we like 'em." No. They're gonna go with what's cheaper. If that means shrinking Skywest in favor of ASA/XJT, they'll do it. You go with the one list to protect everyone in the long run, not for just short term gains.

Sure, you're getting 13 airframes this year. What about when Delta starts pulling back flying in the future? ASA's got a nice clause with Delta that guarantees ATL flying. If United/Continental are successful with their scope drive, Skywest is gonna be hit.....HARD. One list could save a lot of the Skywest guys some heartache if that happens. If CAL's scope sticks, ASA and XJT will pretty much be untouched as far as their flying goes. All those -700s flying for United under Skywest will wind up collecting dust. Best case of Skywest, they might be able to find homes for half of them. What happens to the pilots affected, though? Preferential hiring at ASA/XJT on the bottom of the list, likely. With one list, a lot of guys might be able to salvage some seniority and keep their jobs.

The scenarios you bring up for skywest are highly unlikely. I can't imagine skywest ever being more expensive than asa/skywest. The main reason is we are non-union so it would never get to that. As for skywest having to furlough because of the loss of the ual 700 flying (also unlikely) wouldn't that also be a reason to stay seperate? After all xjt/asa people would lose their jobs because of a loss on the skywest side. however if this kind of scenario were to happen it would happen in reverse. Asa/xjt only have 10% of their flying above 50 seats, while skywest is more like 40%. If anything is lost it will be the abundance of 50 seaters. You said people were forced out of ord, this is not true everyone left willingly. Ord Is a junior commuter base @ skywest, it is much better to have that rather than competing with 1000 other people to get into slc. I would be for one list if skywest would get a more favorible intergration. Not a staple or anything but let's say 3 or 4 for every 2.

 

[bike21]

As a former SAPA rep I can confirm this unfortunate reality. As far as being selfish, it's to the point of complaining about something, but doing nothing, zero, nada, squat to even compile data I could use as an argument to help.

Dude you should have been there when the OC presented our case to SAPA last month. I couldn't make it, but heard about some hilarious [sad] reactions from more than a few reps.

 

[pat84106]

Sadly Steve, more than a few around here only think short term and heavily rely on the idea of 'me' for most decisions.

Why is it my responsiblity to care about people at our competitors? I need to do whats best for myself.

 

[bike21]

Not a staple or anything but let's say 3 or 4 for every 2.

How on Earth can you justify such a position? Do you feel that you are superior to an ASA/XJT guy? Entitled to better a position perhaps? There will always be some initial pain felt by some in any merger, but in the long run it is the best course of action.

Besides, since you apparently subscribe to management's beliefs so much - isn't it more expensive to run two separate companies that operate out of a lot of the same bases now? What about 'synergies' and all those fancy buzzwords?

 

[pat84106]

See the big picture man, it is bigger than you, myself or anyone else. We could do a relative seniortiy merger with some base fences for a few years would help us all in the long run. A 7,000 strong unionized pilot group might just have a chance at getting some good things done for this industry as a whole.

Think about it.

First I dont want a union.
Second, you won't get anything more with 7000 people vs. 3000. That is just a pipedream.
Last, relative senority merger would be a windfall for asa/xjt and a loss for skywest.

 

[bike21]

Why is it my responsiblity to care about people at our competitors? I need to do whats best for myself.

I could go many directions with this. But I'll just leave at this...

This kind of thought process is part of the reason why our industry is where its at today. This is a brotherhood like it or not, if we can't see the big picture and work with another to improve things across the industry then we are sunk.

 

[kellwolf]

The scenarios you bring up for skywest are highly unlikely. I can't imagine skywest ever being more expensive than asa/skywest. The main reason is we are non-union so it would never get to that.

Economies of scale, man. It's okay for it to work of Skywest when it comes to flying -700s instead of Horizon, but it's not okay for it to work for ASA/XJT when it comes to 50 seaters?

As for skywest having to furlough because of the loss of the ual 700 flying (also unlikely) wouldn't that also be a reason to stay seperate?

What you say is unlikely is still possible. I thought it was unlikely Pinnacle would buy Mesaba, and I outright laughed when someone said we were rumored to buy Colgan. Guess what? It happened.....both times. If CAL/UAL get CAL's scope clause to stick around, it won't be 50 seaters that are parked. The scope clause allows those. What the pilots there want is NO regionals at all. A likely compromise is to let CAL's exisiting clause of no jets over 50 seats to stay.

After all xjt/asa people would lose their jobs because of a loss on the skywest side. however if this kind of scenario were to happen it would happen in reverse. Asa/xjt only have 10% of their flying above 50 seats, while skywest is more like 40%. If anything is lost it will be the abundance of 50 seaters. You said people were forced out of ord, this is not true everyone left willingly. Ord Is a junior commuter base @ skywest, it is much better to have that rather than competing with 1000 other people to get into slc. I would be for one list if skywest would get a more favorible intergration. Not a staple or anything but let's say 3 or 4 for every 2.

Look at the scenario again. ASA's 50+ seat flying is on the Delta side. None of that would go away in a a UAL/CAL scope situation. Skywest would lose (using your numbers) around 40% of their flying. I know some of that 50+ seat flying is on the Delta side, but a majority of it is UAL. I'd say Skywest works out as a much bigger loser in that scenario than ASA/XJT. Keeping CAL's existing scope would result in ZERO losses on their side. ASA's United flying (if I recall correctly) is 50 seat, and XJT's been running under that scope clause their entire time. ASA also has a clause (triggered by Skywest's buying them) that guarantees them a percentage of flying out of ATL. That means most of their 50 seat flying on the Delta side is safe. Delta's already picked their 50 seat loser. It's Comair.

You say everyone left ORD willingly. I'm sure you've spoken to each and every person forced out of ORD, then? I'm staring down the barrel of a displacement at my current airline. I can tell ya right now, not everyone is leaving willingly.

Of course you'd be for one list if it benefited Skywest. You've shown repeatedly how you're willing to step on the neck of your fellow pilot if it benefits you. We're talking about benefits for the Skywest Corp group as a whole. I don't like seeing pilots put out of jobs, but I'd love to see the CAL/UAL scope resolved to the point where CAL's current scope holds up (or even gets strengthened). Means better jobs for those of us that want to move on. But, I'm guessing guys at Skywest that share your viewpoint would rather see it relaxed for growth purposes so more guys can upgrade. I upgraded to get the qualifications for a better job, not just so I could retire flying a CRJ-900 on a modified B-scale. The side benefit of that scope would be seeing all the guys that were against one list suddenly crying for some kind of preferntial treatment at ASA/XJT. If it were me, I'd go out of my way to hire OTHER people instead after being stabbed in the back. Hell, there's anymosity at Pinnacle over the XJ and Colgan guys being outspoken about not attending ONE PICKETING event. I can't imagine how it would be if everyone was against a merged seniority list....

 

[kellwolf]

Why is it my responsiblity to care about people at our competitors? I need to do whats best for myself.

Awesome. Nice to see how you view those under the same corporate umbrella. Guys like you are what makes holding company whipsaw work so well.....

 

[bike21]

First I dont want a union.

Your choice, but for the moment a certified SAPA makes a whole lot of sense.

Second, you won't get anything more with 7000 people vs. 3000. That is just a pipedream.

How so? An extra 4,000 pilots means more talent to pull from, more ideas, more voices, more leverage etc.

Last, relative senority merger would be a windfall for asa/xjt and a loss for skywest.

Please explain.

 

[pat84106]

How on Earth can you justify such a position? Do you feel that you are superior to an ASA/XJT guy? Entitled to better a position perhaps? There will always be some initial pain felt by some in any merger, but in the long run it is the best course of action.

If skywest hadn't purchased asa they most likely would be like comair and xjt would be in ch11 best case scenario. The reality is their flying would have been parted out since it would have been done anyway. Now skywest wouldn't have gotten all or even most of but some of it. But since we bought asa and xjt they were both basically saved from that reality. Skywest also has the more desirable bases and flying. So I dont think i'm better than asa/xjt but I do think skywest people have lost more and have more to lose and less to gain in a merger.

 

[stuckingfk]

I could go many directions with this. But I'll just leave at this...

This kind of thought process is part of the reason why our industry is where its at today. This is a brotherhood like it or not, if we can't see the big picture and work with another to improve things across the industry then we are sunk.

Just to play devil's advocate here, I'm not defending 'lil too out there pat', but if you consistently senior major airline pilots sell out their junior pilots, why is it wrong to be afraid of a merger?

Bike21, you know my thoughts on this but I pilots as a whole, we hose are ourselves. It will never stop so the what's in it for me attitude will never and should never stop. It can't, because you'll always have a large enough group that doesn't want their status quo changed so they vote as such.

 

[bike21]

You say everyone left ORD willingly. I'm sure you've spoken to each and every person forced out of ORD, then? I'm staring down the barrel of a displacement at my current airline. I can tell ya right now, not everyone is leaving willingly.

FWIW, what Pat says is true for the moment. No one has been forced out just yet, I can say this with confidence as I bid 93% and will be one of the first ones to get displaced. According the rumor mill, ORD is gonna shrink substantially this year so we'll see down what happens down the road but for now no one has been displaced.

 

[Polar742]

First I dont want a union.

Your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

Second, you won't get anything more with 7000 people vs. 3000. That is just a pipedream.

Arguable, but not substantiated. Look historically at wholly-owned regionals. Specifically the USAir System that had Piedmont, Allegheny and PSA. They remained split.

Last, relative senority merger would be a windfall for asa/xjt and a loss for skywest.

All you do with statements like this is show your absolute lack of knowledge of the RLA process.

Now, what happens when SkyWest has a big pulldown? You're just as hosed. History has not been kind to any airline, especially the ones at the top of their games.

 

[bike21]

Just to play devil's advocate here, I'm not defending 'lil too out there pat', but if you consistently senior major airline pilots sell out their junior pilots, why is it wrong to be afraid of a merger?

Bike21, you know my thoughts on this but I pilots as a whole, we hose are ourselves. It will never stop so the what's in it for me attitude will never and should never stop. It can't, because you'll always have a large enough group that doesn't want their status quo changed so they vote as such.

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to jump into a merger willy-nilly it would be with reserved caution to ensure any short term pain could be spread out evenly as possible. The 'me' attitude is indeed quite prevalent in this industry, just ask the UAL wide body vs. narrow body guys. Perhaps it can't be fixed, but it doesn't mean we need to stop fighting the good fight

 

[GaTechKid]

Pat

If we were one list all the FOs and a lot of CAs at our company would be able to take advantage of XJT/ASAs attrition rate. Also, all of our guys in the Midwest and South could gain access to upgrade opportunities in ATL and even more in IAH than currently available. Have you seen how many Expressjet aircraft there are now in DEN? What happens when bike21 can't get back to DEN because SKW has to reduce lines there to make way for XJT? One list is just as much "about me" as it is "about the greater good."

 

[CRJDriver]

So I dont think i'm better than asa/xjt but I do think skywest people have lost more and have more to lose and less to gain in a merger.

Awesome.

 

[bike21]

What happens when bike21 can't get back to DEN because SKW has to reduce lines there to make way for XJT? One list is just as much "about me" as it is "about the greater good."

Drat! Busted!

In reality any sort of one list business isn't gonna change that to make any sort of difference in the short term. I'm beginning to resign myself to being a commuter for the duration, sucks but it is what it is. It does give me heartburn to see those XJT tails in DEN, but I hold no ill-will to my homeys on the other side.

 

[mrivc211]

To put things in perspective, the "gems" everyone is talking about at Skywest (minus 100% DH and 2:1 rigs) are now present in the Pinnacle TA. That's right, even the crappy regional will have things like a min day, leg by leg cancellation pay and (finally) block or better (even if we overblock on a DH). Suddenly, like jtrain said, they're less gems and more of a baseline that every regional should have.

I don't lose sleep or cry over Skywest losing flying to ASA in ORD. Honestly, if there were one list, it wouldn't be a big deal. But, Skywest didn't want that, so that's what happens with the holding company shell game. Management doesn't really care since they see the same money either way.

Almost every post you make towards our company has some negative spin on it. Like I've stated numerous times, you don't see our guys bad mouthing your company so how about we call an end to this? Regardless about who's total compensation package is better, we're all arguing over peanuts.


edit: With the exception of this Pat guy who embarrasses us constantly.

 

[mrivc211]

I did one leg in DEN on day 1 last week. There are a lot of expressjet planes in DEN and in ORD. I've noticed a lot less complaints by their pilots these days. With the exception of JTrain, - he's never gonna stop complaining, even when he's in the left seat of a widebody. John, you know you have a secret Turban in your closet you want to throw on. C'mon man, the gig is up. We all know living in Michigan has brain washed you into Stockholm Syndrome.