Would this used plane have any market in the US?

elmetal said:
ok I'm beginning to like this idea more and more...

is it FAA certified for normal/util category or would it have to be under experimental?

I would of course only use this plane for fun but the option value of it needs to make it so in the future I could potentially instruct in it, or sell it to somebody who plans to instruct in it.

I really want to fly one of those, but in a land of 400/hr arrow and 150/hr 152 I'm not sure I can afford to fly.

That seems to be like a piper cub, but a little more modern, but still simple. It's almost everything I want in a taildragger.

How much are they going for again?
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29 mil reais
 
swisspilot said:
4 reasons:

-This airplanes are dirt cheap in the US, compared to what most planes sell here in Brazil (a C152 on the market here can be sold for 50-55K dollars) That is nuts.
-C150-152 can be used for IFR training (now the only alternative for IFR training is the Piper Turbo Arrow IV that rents for 400 dollars wet). Wow, that is a jump.
-There are lots of new schools that are private and not supported by the govt.
-The 172 is not certified for PPL flight instruction, so you can`t use it. Interesting.

a c-152 rents for 150-180 dollars wet
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Well that all makes sense.
 
swisspilot said:
4.6 reais a liter
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That's not too bad.... He wants to move here to learn to fly but if he buys one of those, it doesn't seem like it would be to crazy to just stay there...

Or are there crazy fees and taxes as typical for the motherland?
 
elmetal said:
That's not too bad.... He wants to move here to learn to fly but if he buys one of those, it doesn't seem like it would be to crazy to just stay there...

Or are there crazy fees and taxes as typical for the motherland?
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On instruction flights you don`t pay any fees, on private and commercial flights you do, you can`t do touch and go or taxi back at towered airports, you have to go to the ramp where the agent will ck your status (infraero or sinart) so even if you come in with a small plane you can`t just say it`s an instruction flight, plus this airplanes have to say INSTRUCACO on the side of the fuselage. Most airports have fees between 50-60 reais. In Brazil there are lots of airports that don`t have administration (even if it`s mandatory I never file a flight plan when I take off from this places and I land back there...it just does not make any sense), like the one I posted on the other thread, there you don`t pay anything to land or to park, but they are usually outside big cities.

if you train outside a flight school, with your own plane, requirements are a lot higher, I think you need 50 more hours to get your CPL. The aeroboero can`t be used for IFR and you will need to install a 406 ELT if you want to fly one private here, I don`t even wanna mention what`s the price of an ELT like this here.

to give you an idea of costs, the 172 I fly, flown 20 hours a month, costs us about 240-270 reais/hour, this includes hangar, fuel, oil, tires, overhaul and unexpected MX funds, annual (which is around 2000 reais here) and Insurance.

If you just need something to buzz around, a trike is the way to go, you can takeoff from your street, but they do have a pretty high acquisition cost

I would buy a plane here, I just don`t know how much longer I`m gonna be here
 
Btw fuel prices in Brazil are always the same, they almost never change, I think it has been around 4.6 in the last 5-6 years
 
swisspilot said:
On instruction flights you don`t pay any fees, on private and commercial flights you do, you can`t do touch and go or taxi back at towered airports, you have to go to the ramp where the agent will ck your status (infraero or sinart) so even if you come in with a small plane you can`t just say it`s an instruction flight, plus this airplanes have to say INSTRUCACO on the side of the fuselage. Most airports have fees between 50-60 reais. In Brazil there are lots of airports that don`t have administration (even if it`s mandatory I never file a flight plan when I take off from this places and I land back there...it just does not make any sense), like the one I posted on the other thread, there you don`t pay anything to land or to park, but they are usually outside big cities.

if you train outside a flight school, with your own plane, requirements are a lot higher, I think you need 50 more hours to get your CPL. The aeroboero can`t be used for IFR and you will need to install a 406 ELT if you want to fly one private here, I don`t even wanna mention what`s the price of an ELT like this here.

to give you an idea of costs, the 172 I fly, flown 20 hours a month, costs us about 240-270 reais/hour, this includes hangar, fuel, oil, tires, overhaul and unexpected MX funds, annual (which is around 2000 reais here) and Insurance.

If you just need something to buzz around, a trike is the way to go, you can takeoff from your street, but they do have a pretty high acquisition cost

I would buy a plane here, I just don`t know how much longer I`m gonna be here
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I expected some sort of answer as you've given me. Part of the reason I left Brazil is pretty much outlined in this message. The way to keep the classes separated is financial freedom. Flying is prohibitively expensive and that just carries on to anything else that can be done down there as well.

I love the country, I hate the government.

I wouldn't mind having that plane as an experimental here just to buzz around and have some fun. Why couldn't you fit this aeroboero, (or should we say aeroesgoto), with the equipment for IFR? Is it because ANAC won't recognize an aircraft as IFR as opposed to being an equipment list as it is here?

man, what a waste of such good looking aircraft! I wish trainers here were solely tailwheel.....
 
elmetal said:
I expected some sort of answer as you've given me. Part of the reason I left Brazil is pretty much outlined in this message. The way to keep the classes separated is financial freedom. Flying is prohibitively expensive and that just carries on to anything else that can be done down there as well.

I love the country, I hate the government.

I wouldn't mind having that plane as an experimental here just to buzz around and have some fun. Why couldn't you fit this aeroboero, (or should we say aeroesgoto), with the equipment for IFR? Is it because ANAC won't recognize an aircraft as IFR as opposed to being an equipment list as it is here?

man, what a waste of such good looking aircraft! I wish trainers here were solely tailwheel.....
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Well, a tandem plane is not really a good IFR platform, you can`t really teach in it, the space is pretty limited on the panel, they really bounce all over the place at low altitude in this heat (they are too lightweight and unstable). I think in the US the only tandem taildragger that can be IFR is the Aviat Husky. Here in Brazil you need two VORs, two ADFs (a GPS can be used in place of one of the two ADFs) and two COMMs to make it IFR that can fly in IMC, all the flight schools planes that are used for IFR can only fly VFR.

The Aeroboero is an airplane a trike is an other category, same with the LSAs here, you can`t log hours on them.

Flight schools here were set up really nice, you would start on gliders than up to your solo you would fly a Paulistinha http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulistinha_CAP-4, after that you would start flying the Aeroboero and do most of the 70 hours of X-country in it (all dead reckoning and pilotage), IFR and CPL can be done all in one, either single engine if the school does not have a multi, in this case the plane used was the Embraer Corisco (Brazilian made Piper Turbo Arrow IV), if they have a multi (Seneca I, Twin Comanche or a C310) on that. If you do the Ckride on multi you get the single CPL too.

The problem that the directors would steal money out of the school, all the employers are paid by the govt so they don`t really do anything.

The only Aeroclube (govt run flight school) that works and does quality flight training is this one http://www.args.com.br/
 
swisspilot said:
Well, a tandem plane is not really a good IFR platform, you can`t really teach in it, the space is pretty limited on the panel, they really bounce all over the place at low altitude in this heat (they are too lightweight and unstable). I think in the US the only tandem taildragger that can be IFR is the Aviat Husky. Here in Brazil you need two VORs, two ADFs (a GPS can be used in place of one of the two ADFs) and two COMMs to make it IFR that can fly in IMC, all the flight schools planes that are used for IFR can only fly VFR.

The Aeroboero is an airplane a trike is an other category, same with the LSAs here, you can`t log hours on them.

Flight schools here were set up really nice, you would start on gliders than up to your solo you would fly a Paulistinha http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulistinha_CAP-4, after that you would start flying the Aeroboero and do most of the 70 hours of X-country in it (all dead reckoning and pilotage), IFR and CPL can be done all in one, either single engine if the school does not have a multi, in this case the plane used was the Embraer Corisco (Brazilian made Piper Turbo Arrow IV), if they have a multi (Seneca I, Twin Comanche or a C310) on that. If you do the Ckride on multi you get the single CPL too.

The problem that the directors would steal money out of the school, all the employers are paid by the govt so they don`t really do anything.

The only Aeroclube (govt run flight school) that works and does quality flight training is this one http://www.args.com.br/
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that's a hell of a lot of requirements for IFR but I can see why, it leaves a lot more up to you and a lot less up to ATC

I kinda wish students here started on gliders... They really are cool to fly and I wish I had flown them earlier in my training.

Thanks for the explanation of how it works, I'm gonna forward it to my cousin and see what he thinks. He lives in Sao Paulo so I'm not sure if it'd work for him because he would basically either move here, or move to RGS, which in both cases means he moves.

Thanks again
 
Ok...can't do PPL in a plane that is not type certificated for hire. You can do your PPL in a plane that is experimental that you own, or own a piece of - I've seen people get their PPL in Cub replica's, etc.

So...you import these airplanes with their exceptionally low cost of acquisition, license it as "Experimental" and sell "shares" of the airplane as a fractional type of scheme. The pilot purchases a share of the airplane, and then because they own it they can use it for PPL training. The cost of the "Share" and the length of the fractional agreement/hours could be such that it would allow people to get a PPL and then the "fractional company" could buy that person out for a dollar or something nominal and they could move on. They would also get some tax benefit doing it this way potentially and it would drive down the cost of the PPL (because the plane is cheap, the operating costs cheap, which would potentially make up for the increased insurance costs of a taildragger).

From the looks of the airplane it looks great. I wouldn't say it is "heavier" than a pure rag and tube airplane - the empty weight doesn't seem extreme - and lots of rag and tube machines have their weight in the tubes and structure vs a monocoque construction. I prefer rag and tube of course, but a Luscombe is LSA eligible while some rag and tube planes are not.
 
WacoFan said:
Ok...can't do PPL in a plane that is not type certificated for hire. You can do your PPL in a plane that is experimental that you own, or own a piece of - I've seen people get their PPL in Cub replica's, etc.

So...you import these airplanes with their exceptionally low cost of acquisition, license it as "Experimental" and sell "shares" of the airplane as a fractional type of scheme. The pilot purchases a share of the airplane, and then because they own it they can use it for PPL training. The cost of the "Share" and the length of the fractional agreement/hours could be such that it would allow people to get a PPL and then the "fractional company" could buy that person out for a dollar or something nominal and they could move on. They would also get some tax benefit doing it this way potentially and it would drive down the cost of the PPL (because the plane is cheap, the operating costs cheap, which would potentially make up for the increased insurance costs of a taildragger).

From the looks of the airplane it looks great. I wouldn't say it is "heavier" than a pure rag and tube airplane - the empty weight doesn't seem extreme - and lots of rag and tube machines have their weight in the tubes and structure vs a monocoque construction. I prefer rag and tube of course, but a Luscombe is LSA eligible while some rag and tube planes are not.
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That's actually a really good idea. I think the taildragger aspect is extremely appealing to primary students. everybody is always looking for tailwheel to rent and if you have 45+ tailwheel hours when you get your private, insurance starts becoming less of an issue, and since you trained in it, chances are the owner (operator in this case) would let you rent it, giving you a nice cheap rental alternative, while still being tailwheel and very versatile.

Not exactly IFR but...

can experimentals be IFR equipped in the US?
 
elmetal said:
That's actually a really good idea. I think the taildragger aspect is extremely appealing to primary students. everybody is always looking for tailwheel to rent and if you have 45+ tailwheel hours when you get your private, insurance starts becoming less of an issue, and since you trained in it, chances are the owner (operator in this case) would let you rent it, giving you a nice cheap rental alternative, while still being tailwheel and very versatile.

Not exactly IFR but...

can experimentals be IFR equipped in the US?
Click to expand...

Still wouldn't be able to "rent" it because it's experimental. You'd have to work out some kind of fractional "ownership" situation - think of it like resturants in Colin County, TX which is a dry county - you have to do something weird, like be a "member" of a club to order a drink in a resturant, so you join a private drinking club for that resturant only for a buck. It is a nominal charge, and a complete sham, but you just through the hoops of complying with the law. That's what I'm talking about here.

EDIT - and yes, Experimentals can be IFR.
 
WacoFan said:
Still wouldn't be able to "rent" it because it's experimental. You'd have to work out some kind of fractional "ownership" situation - think of it like resturants in Colin County, TX which is a dry county - you have to do something weird, like be a "member" of a club to order a drink in a resturant, so you join a private drinking club for that resturant only for a buck. It is a nominal charge, and a complete sham, but you just through the hoops of complying with the law. That's what I'm talking about here.

EDIT - and yes, Experimentals can be IFR.
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Well I mean a cheap rental alternative to somebody who is already an onwer and got the private in that aircraft.

On that note, what's the most fractional an aircraft can be? 200 owners? 500?

Could I possibly make every single student an owner for a buck and at the end of the aircraft's life have it be owned by 1000 people or whatever the case may be?
 
elmetal said:
Thanks for the explanation of how it works, I'm gonna forward it to my cousin and see what he thinks. He lives in Sao Paulo so I'm not sure if it'd work for him because he would basically either move here, or move to RGS, which in both cases means he moves.

Thanks again
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Does your cousin speaks English? If he does tell him to go to the US, and do everything at a 141 school then go back to Brazil and do the conversion.....
 
swisspilot said:
Does your cousin speaks English? If he does tell him to go to the US, and do everything at a 141 school then go back to Brazil and do the conversion.....
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He's thinking about it, he's got enough money saved up he's just hesitant about moving here. He's lived here a couple of times for about a year at a time but it's such a different lifestyle he couldn't get used to it. He's a city boy and even NYC doesn't come close to the life that is Sao Paulo. It's city but at the same time it's more than just that I'm sure you're well aware
 
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