Personal Minimums.

ppragman

No pasa nada.
The concept of personal minimums irks the hell out of me. There are several things that bother me about it. Frankly I think that it discourages actual judgment from being built by budding aviators, and misses the point of what minimums are leading to future confusion. Additionally, if you can't fly an approach to minimums, what the hell are you doing flying in any IFR weather to begin with?

First and foremost, the concept of a personal minimum is arbitrary to the max. The personal minimum takes an arbitrary value and adds that to approach minima without really understanding what a minimum is there for in the first place. The federales don't give a damn about how proficient you feel when they design an approach. Actually, the whole purpose of an approach is to get you down to a minimum safe clearance altitude at a particular point in space to see the runway. Now, if your personal minimums are something as asinine as "add 500' to every non-precision" or "add 300' to every precision approach," then you're missing the point of the minimum. Each approach has minimums that are specific to that approach, you can't simply slap an additional couple-three hundred feet to an approach and suddenly expect it to be safer! If anything all you've done reduce your chance of making it in (which means that now you're going to have to go missed unnecessarily) and reduced your options if you adhere to your own minimum. Why would you arbitrarily reduce the utility and practicality of your operation and put your self in a position where you're going to have to bust your own minimums when you get to your destination one day with less fuel than you thought? You haven't learned a damned thing about judgment, you haven't learned anything about thinking for yourself, all you've learned is that your minimums were arbitrary, and if your minimums were arbitrary, why not other minimums... Its a slippery, wasteful, and arbitrary slope that misses the point of minimums. The published minimums are the minimums. Everything else is in your head.

That doesn't mean that you can't go missed early if you're uncomfortable with the approach, or something isn't right, but don't plan on going missed early, plan on going missed right where you should, at minimums. The problem with going missed early has other ramifications as well. On an ILS do you level off at your personal minimums and then continue to the DME fix where you should go missed and then initiate the missed? Or do you immediately go missed early? What if the approach says that at minimums you're supposed to "make an immediate climbing right turn, climb in maintain 4000'?" Do you start that immediate turn early? Basically, you end up winging it for the last mile or so to comply with regs, or just saying screw it.

The point of a minimum is to develop a standard procedure that is to be adhere to by all pilots. All pilots from the point of the instrument rating on should be able to descend safely to minimums on any approach required. If they can't, then they shouldn't be flying that approach in the first place. That doesn't mean that they must go on every trip, quite the contrary, they should use their judgment to determine when they can launch in the first place, and when they should (if they have to) go missed early and get the hell out of dodge.

Some pilots go a step further. They come up with "VFR minimums" or "enroute IFR minimums," as a sort of cheap replacement for conscious thought. They say things like, "well, if I don't have at least 3000' Ceilings and 4 Miles of visibility I won't go VFR," or even better, "I won't file when there are lower than 3500' ceilings in the winter." This misses the point of flight planning in the first place. Deciding whether or not you're going, or rather making your "no no-go" decision isn't as simple as "it meets the minimums." First thing a person should think about is, "is it safe?" Or does it pass the hairs-on-the-back-of-your-neck test with you. What's safe for one pilot may not be safe for another, and if the pilot planning is uncomfortable with anything in the flight, that should be a critical point of focus during the planning phase. First and foremost, is the flight safe? Second thing the pilot should be thinking about is "is this going to be legal." As we've seen in plenty of other threads, ascertaining the legality of a particularly situation isn't necessarily easy, but by and large, most of these situations are cut and dry. For those that aren't, if a quick reference to the FARs isn't sufficient to clear up the area, do a little research before you blast off, and maybe delay the trip. With any luck, the weather or conditions resulting in these complications will go away. An arbitrary decree of "never" isn't judgment.

The problem is that there are plenty of flights that can be safely and legally completed in conditions that are at minimums - and I mean the legal minimums. There are flights that are patently unsafe but that will be within a budding pilot's "personal minimums." A personal minimum doesn't imply any higher level of safety than does an actual minimum. All a personal minimum does is obscure and make more complicated the actual process of decision making; personal mins don't effectively prevent pilots from taking off in conditions that are unsafe, it simply limits the times when pilots can takeoff. Safety (whose lack is sometimes used as an epithet - in my experience often by the proponents of the personal minimum) in the decision making process isn't enhanced by anything arbitrary, rather safety goes hand in hand with judgment.
 
If it makes you feel better, I have no problem flying an ILS to minimums*

Now, if I buy a plane. Say a single engine plane that's /A or so, and I'm flying it for my own use. I will have my personal minimums. I will have a decision point that is similar to "If it's not 3000 and 5 I'll file". I will have a decision point that if it's not 800-1 at my destination I won't go. I will have decision points that if everything between my departure and destination are 200-1/2 I won't go. Again, the numbers are arbitrary to the discussion, merely used to illustrate the point.

That is using judgment.

Evaluating yourself, your equipment and your risk tolerance when you're building experience, or flying for pleasure, and sticking to those decision points are the ultimate display of judgment and discipline.
 
I'd agree that personal minimums, as they relate to approach minima are kind of silly. Either you can fly IMC or you can't.

Personal minimums as they relate to how much weather you are willing to deal with are a pretty good idea.
 
I disagree. I think that setting personal minimums higher than published minimums is a good idea while building experience, both in flying IFR in general, and even when transitioning to a new airframe. It think that the FAA agrees - 135.225 (e).
 
If it makes you feel better, I have no problem flying an ILS to minimums*

Now, if I buy a plane. Say a single engine plane that's /A or so, and I'm flying it for my own use. I will have my personal minimums. I will have a decision point that is similar to "If it's not 3000 and 5 I'll file". I will have a decision point that if it's not 800-1 at my destination I won't go. I will have decision points that if everything between my departure and destination are 200-1/2 I won't go. Again, the numbers are arbitrary to the discussion, merely used to illustrate the point.

That is using judgment.

Evaluating yourself, your equipment and your risk tolerance when you're building experience, or flying for pleasure, and sticking to those decision points are the ultimate display of judgment and discipline.

I disagree with the idea that any of it should be arbitrary. What if its a five minute flight from an airport that's 10 miles away to another airport where you need a special? Nothing wrong with that if you feel comfortable doing that. What about if you're in your piston single and its 800-1 at your destination, but there are numerous airports in the vicinity that are CAVU? Why not go and give it a shot if its at mins, then if you can't make it in, head to a close alternate? That sort of thing happens all the time. Its not judgment to say "I'm not going unless XX occurs," its judgment to weigh the possible outcome of the flight and determine if you can safely complete the flight, or if the level of risk is acceptable to you at that time. Of course you should be evaluating yourself, the equipment, and your risk tolerance for every flight, as well as sticking to your guns when you don't think you should go. That said, risk varies so much for every flight that weighing that risk isn't something that can be done arbitrarily. One day I might say, "ehh, I don't think I can complete this flight when its 1SM and Clear of clouds," another day it might be totally practical and easy. All weather, and all conditions are not created equal (in my opinion). Others have different philosophies about judgment and flying, and that's fine by me, I don't look down on different ways of decision making, rather, I just don't agree with all (or in the case of personal minimums most/any) of the tenets of some systems.

I'd agree that personal minimums, as they relate to approach minima are kind of silly. Either you can fly IMC or you can't.

Personal minimums as they relate to how much weather you are willing to deal with are a pretty good idea.

I dunno about the second part. I've seen days where I really wish I hadn't flown in "good weather," and other days where I could have flown but didn't. How much weather you're willing to deal with (in my understanding of it) has nothing to do with setting personal minimums it has to do with evaluating the conditions and determining weather (see what I did there?) or not the risk is acceptable for the mission and the type of operation. Now if your "personal minimums" change, then I think we're talking the same language, but saying something like, "I'll never fly if <insert legal operating situation here>," isn't really planning.
 
Here's another thought for you - if you don't like the idea of setting personal minimums, how do you feel about 0/0 take-offs for Part 91 operations?
 
I disagree with the idea that any of it should be arbitrary. What if its a five minute flight from an airport that's 10 miles away to another airport where you need a special? Nothing wrong with that if you feel comfortable doing that. What about if you're in your piston single and its 800-1 at your destination, but there are numerous airports in the vicinity that are CAVU? Why not go and give it a shot if its at mins, then if you can't make it in, head to a close alternate? That sort of thing happens all the time. Its not judgment to say "I'm not going unless XX occurs," its judgment to weigh the possible outcome of the flight and determine if you can safely complete the flight, or if the level of risk is acceptable to you at that time. Of course you should be evaluating yourself, the equipment, and your risk tolerance for every flight, as well as sticking to your guns when you don't think you should go. That said, risk varies so much for every flight that weighing that risk isn't something that can be done arbitrarily. One day I might say, "ehh, I don't think I can complete this flight when its 1SM and Clear of clouds," another day it might be totally practical and easy. All weather, and all conditions are not created equal (in my opinion). Others have different philosophies about judgment and flying, and that's fine by me, I don't look down on different ways of decision making, rather, I just don't agree with all (or in the case of personal minimums most/any) of the tenets of some systems.

Because, what I'm trying to allude to is the following:

If I'm at work, I am appropriately rated in their equipment, and as long as it's safe and legal I'll fly their plane to their destination. If I don't make it in, I don't care.

If I'm on my off time, I will use the experience and judgment I have gained in all my years of flying well equipped equipment to places of all sorts of manner and weather to decide what my personal minimums are for a certain flight. Obviously, if I stay in my state of Florida, where you can't swing a dead cat without hitting 5,000' of concrete and ceilings are rarely below 3000' and there is no terrain, I would exercise different criteria than if I were to be flying my family on a 450 nm cross country into the hills of western North Carolina.

If I'm flying on my own time, and I can't get into where I want to go, why go there? I don't want to fly into South Carolina (closest alternate) when I want to be in North Carolina. So, I would want to make sure I give myself a "weather buffer". Would I want to fly over mountainous terrain in a single engine plane with low WX? Nope. If there is a failure bad enough I need to get down now, chances are it's a bad day. Not the time I'd like to try gliding down to 200-1/2. Or taking an ILS in piston single to 200-1/2 into an airport that has steep climb gradients for a missed approach? On my own time? Too much like work, and not the safety margin I'd like.

These are reasons for me, personally, to have personal minimums.
 
I disagree. I think that setting personal minimums higher than published minimums is a good idea while building experience, both in flying IFR in general, and even when transitioning to a new airframe. It think that the FAA agrees - 135.225 (e).

Those become the "legal minimum" while you're on "high mins," so you have to follow it. That's the federales' prerogative, and 100' and 1/2 mile is reasonable most of the time, but its implementation is very poor. A caravan has a high mins restriction but a navajo does not? I'd suspect that a high performance piston twin is more challenging to fly than my lumbering "scare-avan." I had to follow it when I didn't have a 100hrs in type, but I don't particularly think that an arbitrary 100hrs in all turbine machines goes that far to preventing accidents if the guys and gals flying the thing haven't thought through their actions ahead of time. Then if the alternate goes to mins, you can go all the way down to mins there? or what if you're going part 91, then you can fly the approach all the way down to normal mins! Basically, all it amounts to is that for 100hrs your utility is reduced at airports with an ILS. If you're not flying an ILS, and 100' and 1/2 mile isn't a proportional raise in minimums for the airport.

My personal belief is that having a better alternate, or not launching in the first place is better than adding numbers to your approach minima.
 
I agree Patrick. What is the point of obtaining that IFR cert if you are not going to use it! To me there is really no point. My personal Minimums? What are they on the approach, Ok there is the REIL I'll head down another 100 FT. It could be the freight dog in you talking though lol. Just the other night I went into KOKC and I just got cleared for the ILS 17L. I switch to tower to hear "Southwest 1234, Missed approach." I think awe hell. Then tower, "Martex, Southwest did not have the field, RVR 3000, let me know if you get it" I proceed down to 200AGL and catch the MIRL then I see the REIL. I continue down 100 feet and catch the centerline lights and land. I call the tower. "Tower, Martex on the ground exiting at Mike". Tower says taxi to park. I hear another pilot come in. Ground asks me where I got the field. I tell them right at mins. This is the great part. There is a 310 on the ILS next. I hear, and I'm not kidding you. "Rogers tower, Twin Cessna 123 abandoning approach, that's to low for me!". Why?! Why is that to low? I got in with no problem! Why pay for the ticket if you can't use it. I am aware that SW most likely had a High Mins capt. on board but I will tell you it made me feel good getting in and having them go missed. Its the challenge. Its what drives us to fly...Right?! But then again it may be the freight dog in me talking.....
 
My personal belief is that having a better alternate, or not launching in the first place is better than adding numbers to your approach minima.

Isn't "...not launching in the first place..." exactly the same thing as having personal minimums?
 
Here's another thought for you - if you don't like the idea of setting personal minimums, how do you feel about 0/0 take-offs for Part 91 operations?

It depends on the situation. For one, 0/0 isn't really something that ever actually happens, I don't even think that RVR readings go that low ;). But in a multi engine turbine powered airplane, if there are close alternates that could be used nearby I'd have no problem with it if the crew was proficient and didn't think that the safe completion of the maneuver was ever in doubt. Now, there are factors at play here that are more complicated than just equipment, what's causing the low vis? What's the nearby topography and weather conditions, how are is the runway lit, etc? Now, personally, I don't think that I would be doing it in a piston single, but I can invision situations in which it could be safely done with minimum risk. Like all things, it depends.

Because, what I'm trying to allude to is the following:

If I'm at work, I am appropriately rated in their equipment, and as long as it's safe and legal I'll fly their plane to their destination. If I don't make it in, I don't care.

If I'm on my off time, I will use the experience and judgment I have gained in all my years of flying well equipped equipment to places of all sorts of manner and weather to decide what my personal minimums are for a certain flight. Obviously, if I stay in my state of Florida, where you can't swing a dead cat without hitting 5,000' of concrete and ceilings are rarely below 3000' and there is no terrain, I would exercise different criteria than if I were to be flying my family on a 450 nm cross country into the hills of western North Carolina.

If I'm flying on my own time, and I can't get into where I want to go, why go there? I don't want to fly into South Carolina (closest alternate) when I want to be in North Carolina. So, I would want to make sure I give myself a "weather buffer". Would I want to fly over mountainous terrain in a single engine plane with low WX? Nope. If there is a failure bad enough I need to get down now, chances are it's a bad day. Not the time I'd like to try gliding down to 200-1/2. Or taking an ILS in piston single to 200-1/2 into an airport that has steep climb gradients for a missed approach? On my own time? Too much like work, and not the safety margin I'd like.

These are reasons for me, personally, to have personal minimums.

Ok, yeah I get this, this is basically the same thing I think, I think we're just calling it two different things.
 
Isn't "...not launching in the first place..." exactly the same thing as having personal minimums?
There's a huge difference between "not launching" because you weighed the decisions and decided that it wouldn't be prudent and saying "I don't fly in the winter when the ceilings are below 3500'."
 
Ok, yeah I get this, this is basically the same thing I think, I think we're just calling it two different things.

No, because I don't think everything you rail about in your post is an issue at any level. I think if any pilot wants to exercise any of the things you complain about, even if they decide they never want to fly an ILS below 800-2 it doesn't bother me.

It's their comfort level.

I did the same thing when I first got my IFR ticket. Set a high overcast, and as I got more and more proficient, I lowered the actual weather I flew in. Seems to have worked out for me. YMMV
 
It depends on the situation. For one, 0/0 isn't really something that ever actually happens, I don't even think that RVR readings go that low ;). But in a multi engine turbine powered airplane, if there are close alternates that could be used nearby I'd have no problem with it if the crew was proficient and didn't think that the safe completion of the maneuver was ever in doubt. Now, there are factors at play here that are more complicated than just equipment, what's causing the low vis? What's the nearby topography and weather conditions, how are is the runway lit, etc? Now, personally, I don't think that I would be doing it in a piston single, but I can invision situations in which it could be safely done with minimum risk. Like all things, it depends.

Isn't this, also, a case of setting personal minimums?

Ok, yeah I get this, this is basically the same thing I think, I think we're just calling it two different things.

I suspect that is the case across the board. When a pilot decides, before a flight is even contemplated, what his personal tolerances are regarding future flights - that's what I call setting personal minimums.

As far as the specific act of adding altitude/visibility to approach minimums, I think that even that is a good idea for pilots that aren't at the peak of their game. I know that when I've been away from instrument flying for a while I'm not as sharp. I don't track a localizer and a glideslope like I do when I'm flying every day, and I think it is a sign of good judgment to recognize a situation like that and adjust personal limitations to match.
 
But in a multi engine turbine powered airplane, if there are close alternates that could be used nearby I'd have no problem with it if the crew was proficient and didn't think that the safe completion of the maneuver was ever in doubt. Now, there are factors at play here that are more complicated than just equipment, what's causing the low vis? What's the nearby topography and weather conditions, how are is the runway lit, etc?

Dunno about you my friend, but I wouldn't want to wrestle with a high-speed reject at 140-150 knots with RVR down near 0. The lowest RVR I've departed in outside the sim is 600 RVR, and that's plenty low without a HUD and other fun stuff along with it. Just not worth the risk, even if you're carrying the proverbial "organs for orphans."

I don't disagree with the personal minimums idea, actually. For someone flying non-professionally and is new to instrument flying or a certain aircraft type, yeah, I think it's a good idea to gradually step into the water instead of diving into the deep end. I mean, I know guys who are still excited by the idea of flying an approach to 600/2; is it a good idea for them to shoot to 1800 RVR without building up to it? They could probably do it without bending metal, but what's the rush? Work up to it so that you can do it confidently.

For a professional pilot, I agree that personal minimums (in terms of approach visibility) are too conservative. The expectation as a professional is that you can take the airplane down to the prescribed minimums.
 
Dunno about you my friend, but I wouldn't want to wrestle with a high-speed reject at 140-150 knots with RVR down near 0. The lowest RVR I've departed in outside the sim is 600 RVR, and that's plenty low without a HUD and other fun stuff along with it. Just not worth the risk, even if you're carrying the proverbial "organs for orphans."

I don't disagree with the personal minimums idea, actually. For someone flying non-professionally and is new to instrument flying or a certain aircraft type, yeah, I think it's a good idea to gradually step into the water instead of diving into the deep end. I mean, I know guys who are still excited by the idea of flying an approach to 600/2; is it a good idea for them to shoot to 1800 RVR without building up to it? Certainly they could probably do it without bending metal, but what's the rush? Work up to it so that you can do it confidently.

For a professional pilot, I agree that personal minimums (in terms of approach visibility) are too conservative. The expectation as a professional is that you can take the airplane down to the prescribed minimums.
600RVR is the lowest I've seen in the outside world too. I think that's the lowest it goes, honestly, as I've never even heard a lower RVR reported. That said, it depends on the crew, the airplane, the airport, lot's of stuff. Is it something I want to be doing on a regular basis? Hell no, but I'm not going to categorically reject the idea that it can be done safely. It doesn't really depend on the mission for me (organs for orphans aside), but there is some equipment action going on that's interesting. I'd be more comfortable doing it in a caravan with Chelton Synthetic vision than I would be in doing it in a steam guaged King Air, but again, there's lot's of factors involved.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of my ideas, the internet never convinced anyone, but I mentioned it in another thread, and someone asked me to post on it.
 
If I'm on my off time, I will use the experience and judgment I have gained in all my years of flying well equipped equipment to places of all sorts of manner and weather to decide what my personal minimums are for a certain flight. Obviously, if I stay in my state of Florida, where you can't swing a dead cat without hitting 5,000' of concrete and ceilings are rarely below 3000' and there is no terrain, I would exercise different criteria than if I were to be flying my family on a 450 nm cross country into the hills of western North Carolina.

Exactly...that's using judgment, not just setting an arbitrary limit for all situations.
 
I don't know what you guys do, but I know if I hear the atis calling 600rvr, I kick off my pumas, slip on the justin boots, don my bud light hat, pack my copenhagen, put a dip in, grab my nuts and sing great balls of fire all the way down the ils.

Ymmv.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
 
I don't know what you guys do, but I know if I hear the atis calling 600rvr, I kick off my pumas, slip on the justin boots, don my bud light hat, pack my copenhagen, put a dip in, grab my nuts and sing great balls of fire all the way down the ils.

Ymmv.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Lol, wait, do you work for Quest?
 
Exactly...that's using judgment, not just setting an arbitrary limit for all situations.

I don't have an issue with a dude that flies his BE55 50 hours a year setting an arbitrary limit. Not a thing wrong with it.
 
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