AA off the end in Jackson Hole.......

Re: Video

ProudPilot said:
I agree on late spoilers and thrust reversers. I know with the snow that you don't want to deploy them if you can avoid it, but with 6400 feet, patchy snow, and they were clipping along pretty well at around 2000' down (guessing by timing) that they had to be flinching by then. Still, TR would have been nice a lot earlier, when they were faster and their deployment wouldn't have affected their operations in terms of iced flaps and wings as much. Instead, low speed at the last minute is too little too late.
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Why would you not deploy spoilers and TR's on snow covered rwy??? That is asking for trouble. From the looks of it from Jesus boy, they had something wrong with TR's and had to redeploy, and by then they were done.

Not enough info on what happened, but that is a guess since everybody survived and we are only watching video of the wing. Who knows for sure, so we will await the NTSB report. All we know for sure is...they went off the end.
 
Re: Video

Stone Cold said:
Why would you not deploy spoilers and TR's on snow covered rwy??? That is asking for trouble. From the looks of it from Jesus boy, they had something wrong with TR's and had to redploy, and by then they were done.
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I was thinking the same thing. Now, MAX thrust reversers might cause a white out condition, but if I've only got that little runway, I'll go max, and if I see white out, I'll back off a little bit. Same thing if the TRs deploy asymmetrically, and I start losing directional control. Use them, then slowly back out until I get control back. What may have happened is something we found was happening here. Thankfully, we caught it before more than one airplane went off the end of a runway. We've got a call out the non-flying pilot makes on the airspeed to remind the pilot flying to stow the reversers (or at least bring them to idle) by 60 kts. LOTS of guys were just slamming the reveresers closed when they heard the call out. Doing that on a contaminated runway before you're sure you're gonna stop by the end is a recipe for trouble. Not sure if AA has a similar call out, but that would be something that may cause them to suddenly want to try to re-deploy the TRs.
 
Re: Video

kellwolf said:
I was thinking the same thing. Now, MAX thrust reversers might cause a white out condition, but if I've only got that little runway, I'll go max, and if I see white out, I'll back off a little bit. Same thing if the TRs deploy asymmetrically, and I start losing directional control. Use them, then slowly back out until I get control back. What may have happened is something we found was happening here. Thankfully, we caught it before more than one airplane went off the end of a runway. We've got a call out the non-flying pilot makes on the airspeed to remind the pilot flying to stow the reversers (or at least bring them to idle) by 60 kts. LOTS of guys were just slamming the reveresers closed when they heard the call out. Doing that on a contaminated runway before you're sure you're gonna stop by the end is a recipe for trouble. Not sure if AA has a similar call out, but that would be something that may cause them to suddenly want to try to re-deploy the TRs.
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Understood, and I think most jet operators have the low speed call out. However, it is up to the crew to figure out where you are and what you need. If I am at 1000' markers and 60+ knots, guess what I'm doing? Like I said, and like was pointed out in the comments on You Tube, the TR's cracked just a bit on the camera side, then shut, then redeployed with what seemed like max TR. From my little experience, my "guess" would be the guy flying received at 1 or 2 unlocked, 1 deployed call out, stowed and retried. By then, as I said before, they were done. They are now a news article. We will have to see for sure when the NTSB report comes out. I am purely Monday Morning QB'ing, which I hate, based on the video.:insane:
 
Re: Video

Stone Cold said:
Why would you not deploy spoilers and TR's on snow covered rwy??? That is asking for trouble. From the looks of it from Jesus boy, they had something wrong with TR's and had to redeploy, and by then they were done.

Not enough info on what happened, but that is a guess since everybody survived and we are only watching video of the wing. Who knows for sure, so we will await the NTSB report. All we know for sure is...they went off the end.
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Speedbrake handle not in ARMED and "I forgot" circuit inoperative? Thrust levers advanced beyond idle? Speedbrake handle movement? Fault? (etc.)

The only guys who can tell us what happened won't be talking to us: they'll be talking to their union folk, the FAA, and the NTSB...
 
Re: Video

Autothrust Blue said:
Speedbrake handle not in ARMED and "I forgot" circuit inoperative? Thrust levers advanced beyond idle? Speedbrake handle movement? Fault? (etc.)

The only guys who can tell us what happened won't be talking to us: they'll be talking to their union folk, the FAA, and the NTSB...
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I was specifically replying to this post:

ProudPilot said:
I agree on late spoilers and thrust reversers. I know with the snow that you don't want to deploy them if you can avoid it, but with 6400 feet, patchy snow, and they were clipping along pretty well at around 2000' down (guessing by timing) that they had to be flinching by then. Still, TR would have been nice a lot earlier, when they were faster and their deployment wouldn't have affected their operations in terms of iced flaps and wings as much. Instead, low speed at the last minute is too little too late.
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As far as the rest of your post, as has been said many times, we are not inventing new ways to break airplanes...we shall wait and see what the NTSB reports. Like I said, I was purely MMQB'ing based on the video. I am awaiting reports now.
 
Re: Video

Stone Cold said:
As far as the rest of your post, as has been said many times, we are not inventing new ways to break airplanes...we shall wait and see what the NTSB reports. Like I said, I was purely MMQB'ing based on the video. I am awaiting reports now.
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Ah, roger that. And no, we aren't...but we also don't go far enough. "Oh, it was pilot error." "Well yeah, but why did two experienced pros..."
 
Re: Video

kellwolf said:
I was thinking the same thing. Now, MAX thrust reversers might cause a white out condition, but if I've only got that little runway, I'll go max, and if I see white out, I'll back off a little bit. Same thing if the TRs deploy asymmetrically, and I start losing directional control. Use them, then slowly back out until I get control back. What may have happened is something we found was happening here. Thankfully, we caught it before more than one airplane went off the end of a runway. We've got a call out the non-flying pilot makes on the airspeed to remind the pilot flying to stow the reversers (or at least bring them to idle) by 60 kts. LOTS of guys were just slamming the reveresers closed when they heard the call out. Doing that on a contaminated runway before you're sure you're gonna stop by the end is a recipe for trouble. Not sure if AA has a similar call out, but that would be something that may cause them to suddenly want to try to re-deploy the TRs.
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we have the same, a call out at 80 kts and they have to be in reverse idle by 60 kts. we dont take them out of reverse idle until at a safe taxi speed.
scooter2525 said:
Is that to prevent FOD?
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yes, at least for us, if they are out at less than 60 kts it requires a fan blade inspection
 
Re: Video

Looks to me that the translating sleeve tried to crack open several times, but didn't for whatever reason. Can't see the spoilers, but even if you forget to arm the speedbrakes, they'll deploy automatically when the gear trucks untilt and the TLs are brought to the reverse idle detent. Just looking at the 757-200 QRH numbers, with max autobrakes and reverse you'd need right about 5000' with medium braking action at 190,000 lbs (includes 1000' of air distance). Add about 1700' to that without reverse.

Dunno! You can clearly see the sleeve trying to unlock several times without any success.
 
Re: Video

tlewis95 said:
I had a feeling that there would be a video of this one somewhere.

I can't help but notice the lack of spoilers in the video too...and why were they waiting so long on the TRs?
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I was thinking the same thing. It almost looked like the reversers tried to open a once or twice but didn't.
 
Re: Video

dasleben said:
Looks to me that the translating sleeve tried to crack open several times, but didn't for whatever reason. Can't see the spoilers, but even if you forget to arm the speedbrakes, they'll deploy automatically when the gear trucks untilt and the TLs are brought to the reverse idle detent. Just looking at the 757-200 QRH numbers, with max autobrakes and reverse you'd need right about 5000' with medium braking action at 190,000 lbs (includes 1000' of air distance). Add about 1700' to that without reverse.

Dunno! You can clearly see the sleeve trying to unlock several times without any success.
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Wow, it's almost like you just went through ground school for the 57!!
 
Yeah bad day in Jackson. I landed in front of him and watched him go off the runway. Well see what the NTSB says, That plane caught some air as it bounced off the snowbank at the end. Scott it ended up about 100ft from the fence.
 
Re: Video

dasleben said:
Looks to me that the translating sleeve tried to crack open several times, but didn't for whatever reason. Can't see the spoilers, but even if you forget to arm the speedbrakes, they'll deploy automatically when the gear trucks untilt and the TLs are brought to the reverse idle detent. Just looking at the 757-200 QRH numbers, with max autobrakes and reverse you'd need right about 5000' with medium braking action at 190,000 lbs (includes 1000' of air distance). Add about 1700' to that without reverse.

Dunno! You can clearly see the sleeve trying to unlock several times without any success.
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You hit the nail on the head. It looks like, by the video, that this may be some sort of mechanical fault. I just can't see on a contaminated short runway at high elevation, why you wouldn't get into reverse right away and get it stopped pronto.

It will be interesting to see what the NTSB has to say about this.
 
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