Weirdest reason for busting a checkride

jrh said:
Ok, so like I've said all along...the bust is legit. I'm not saying they busted him for something outside the scope of the PTS, or treated him unfairly.

What I'm saying is, what does this all accomplish? If a person busts on the oral exam, it's because they don't have a good enough academic understanding of a topic. If they don't perform a maneuver correctly or safely, that's a clear cut reason with a clear cut way of retraining them.

In this case, I'm at a loss of what the retraining is going to do, other than waste everyone's time. Heck, I probably could probably pencil whip the flight (not that I will!), tell the guy to make sure to use the checklist, and have him pass his retest with flying colors.

Does nobody else here see what a bunch of paperwork and bureaucracy this whole mess is? It's simply not needed.
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I had a flight like that. When I did my multi/IR/CPL checkride it was in a Seminole. Our Seminole fleet had two different sets of avionics. The old planes had the KLN89B, the new ones had the GNS430. All the flights where we did instrument stuff were in the Garmin. The checkride of course was in the Bendix. Kicked the crap out of that thing until the stage pilot wanted me to do a GPS overlay approach of a VOR with vectors to final. Tinkered around with the GPS a while until it was obvious I didn't know how to do it. Requested the plain ol VOR approach, when she let me know I busted. I finished the rest of the checkride so that all I had to re-accomplish was that approach.

Of course the recheck was done in one of the planes with a Garmin, which I knew inside out. The retraining was one of the most pointless flights ever. I knew how to load the approach, pick the IAF, but I forgot you needed to put it in OBS mode and dial in the final approach course. So I got to learn that gem at something to the tune of $160/hr.

Back to the topic. If it was "oops, I forgot to use the checklist" yeah, a debrief is probably the best course of action. If its "I just don't use the checklist when I fly" maybe learning it the hard way is the only way....though if its an attitude problem, that probably wont help either.

We're kind of going through the same problem at my company. Some people don't fly standard/follow checklists. So they re-did the checklists to try to catch the errors they often make (mostly flap settings and altimeter settings). Making it more cumbersome for those of us who do follow it. But its not going to save the guys who don't look at it in the first place. Example, here's how the first part of the descent and approach checklist go.

Pilot flying: 29.86, Descent and approach to the line.
Pilot Monitoring: Altimeters
PF: 29.86 set
PM: 29.86 crosschecked.
 
jrh said:
No, that's what ticks me off. The guy really did/does use a printed checklist in his everyday flying. I saw him use it over and over while I was training him.

And he used it throughout his checkride up until the point at which he busted.

He just got distracted. The examiner asked him to teach how to enter the pattern and land at an untowered airport. He got so busy teaching as he entered the pattern that he never looked down at the checklist.

I don't know what the inspector expects of a checkride. Perfection, I suppose :rolleyes:
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Wait a minute. If he was "teaching," as I understand the CFI checkride, then shouldn't it have been the examiner/student who pulled out and used the checklist? And shouldn't it have been the candidate/instructor's job to remind the "student" to use it?
 
O&M said:
Wait a minute. If he was "teaching," as I understand the CFI checkride, then shouldn't it have been the examiner/student who pulled out and used the checklist? And shouldn't it have been the candidate/instructor's job to remind the "student" to use it?
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Agreed. I know someone who busted their CFI initial because the Examiner didn't like the field they selected for the emergency landing. Weird stuff happens out there I suppose...
 
jrh said:
Ok, so like I've said all along...the bust is legit. I'm not saying they busted him for something outside the scope of the PTS, or treated him unfairly.

What I'm saying is, what does this all accomplish? If a person busts on the oral exam, it's because they don't have a good enough academic understanding of a topic. If they don't perform a maneuver correctly or safely, that's a clear cut reason with a clear cut way of retraining them.

In this case, I'm at a loss of what the retraining is going to do, other than waste everyone's time. Heck, I probably could probably pencil whip the flight (not that I will!), tell the guy to make sure to use the checklist, and have him pass his retest with flying colors.

Does nobody else here see what a bunch of paperwork and bureaucracy this whole mess is? It's simply not needed.
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IMHO, hearing what I have heard about that FSDO, unless the WHOLE ride is perfect, you will get a pink slip. I think that FSDO is more about asserting authority because of its location than doing what is right. Yes, checklist usage is a big part of the ride, but if he did great on everything else, like you said, give the guy his ticket and talk to him about it on the ground when the ride is over. I would take the guy up in the pattern, depart the pattern, re-enter the pattern, tell him you want to hear the checklist out loud as he reads it, then sign him off and re-schedule the ride ASAP. Needless to say, I am glad I am not from your area and never had to send ANYONE to that FSDO. They expect absolute perfection, from the PPL to the CFI, and I feel it's unreasonable to expect that during a check ride. IMHO, it's more important to demonstrate proficiency and safety than perfection. But again, thats just a CFI's opinion.


P.S. When I have a perfect flight, it's time to hang it up. It means I have quit learning, and thats never good.
 
O&M said:
Wait a minute. If he was "teaching," as I understand the CFI checkride, then shouldn't it have been the examiner/student who pulled out and used the checklist? And shouldn't it have been the candidate/instructor's job to remind the "student" to use it?
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Not necessarily. If the examiner is asking you to do a demonstration method, then the demonstration needs to include all items as they should be performed when the student performs the task. THe examiner may perform a task and ask the applicant to evaluate it or play "instructor" and catch his mistakes.
 
mshunter said:
IMHO, hearing what I have heard about that FSDO, unless the WHOLE ride is perfect, you will get a pink slip. I think that FSDO is more about asserting authority because of its location than doing what is right. Yes, checklist usage is a big part of the ride, but if he did great on everything else, like you said, give the guy his ticket and talk to him about it on the ground when the ride is over. I would take the guy up in the pattern, depart the pattern, re-enter the pattern, tell him you want to hear the checklist out loud as he reads it, then sign him off and re-schedule the ride ASAP. Needless to say, I am glad I am not from your area and never had to send ANYONE to that FSDO. They expect absolute perfection, from the PPL to the CFI, and I feel it's unreasonable to expect that during a check ride. IMHO, it's more important to demonstrate proficiency and safety than perfection. But again, thats just a CFI's opinion.



P.S. When I have a perfect flight, it's time to hang it up. It means I have quit learning, and thats never good.
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They certainly do not expect perfection, and most don't, but they do expect consistency.
 
mshunter said:
IMHO, hearing what I have heard about that FSDO, unless the WHOLE ride is perfect, you will get a pink slip. I think that FSDO is more about asserting authority because of its location than doing what is right. Yes, checklist usage is a big part of the ride, but if he did great on everything else, like you said, give the guy his ticket and talk to him about it on the ground when the ride is over. I would take the guy up in the pattern, depart the pattern, re-enter the pattern, tell him you want to hear the checklist out loud as he reads it, then sign him off and re-schedule the ride ASAP. Needless to say, I am glad I am not from your area and never had to send ANYONE to that FSDO. They expect absolute perfection, from the PPL to the CFI, and I feel it's unreasonable to expect that during a check ride. IMHO, it's more important to demonstrate proficiency and safety than perfection. But again, thats just a CFI's opinion.


P.S. When I have a perfect flight, it's time to hang it up. It means I have quit learning, and thats never good.
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I failed my initial CFI at that FSDO. Did great on everything except I floated my 180 power off too far. It happens. The checklist usage, for me, could have gone either way. Maybe a good talking to would have been just as effective, but who knows. It really is a hassle for all the parties involved to have to send him back so he can read off a list. I think the DPE may have noticed a theme throughout the checkride that he didn't like. Missing the checklist one time doesn't seem right during a checkride. Maybe the student was constantly not pulling it out or never read it once.

I personally think talking to him would have sufficed if everything else was good, but that's not my call. The DPE in the airplane made the call.
 
Ziggyfuzz said:
Distractions kill people.....I'm a DE and a CFI and have some airline experience.... and think you need to re think your approach here
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Yeah... distractions kill people... like looking down at a piece of paper while you're trying to enter an unfamilar pattern. What was the aircraft anyways? A light retract single...? descent/landing checklist isn't exactly a crew required procedure all that matters is the gear is down and fuel valve/situation is on the best position for landing.. the rest is all still flying semantics (prop, mix, etc) . Maybe the emphasis should be on actually flying the airplane.
 
Doesn't the applicant have to "consistently exceed tolerances" to bust? I agree that bringing it up in the debrief would have been the right thing to do.
 
jrh said:
Ok, so like I've said all along...the bust is legit. I'm not saying they busted him for something outside the scope of the PTS, or treated him unfairly.

What I'm saying is, what does this all accomplish? If a person busts on the oral exam, it's because they don't have a good enough academic understanding of a topic. If they don't perform a maneuver correctly or safely, that's a clear cut reason with a clear cut way of retraining them.

In this case, I'm at a loss of what the retraining is going to do, other than waste everyone's time. Heck, I probably could probably pencil whip the flight (not that I will!), tell the guy to make sure to use the checklist, and have him pass his retest with flying colors.

Does nobody else here see what a bunch of paperwork and bureaucracy this whole mess is? It's simply not needed.
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I agree with you on that aspect, the retraining does seem like a bit of a bureaucratic technicality in this situation.

I have a friend who's student failed their comm ME ride because they forgot their sectional chart and were thus unable to complete the cross country portion of the flight. Everything else went fine so the only thing they had to do on the retest was fly to the first checkpoint and then divert back. The illogical thing is that this student had to pay for an extra hour of flight time to retrain on what essentially amounted to remembering to check his flight case before the flight. But just like you pointed out, the FAA needs to see at least a few tenths in the logbook to prove the training took place.
 
I only partially agree with the bust.

I think it would have been an excellent teaching point in the debrief, but not a 'bust' item.

As an examiner(141 self examining puppy mill) I always asked myself: 'How will the instructor retrain this failure item.' Obviously picking up and reading a checklist isn't exactly something you need to go through with someone on that level of training. Re-training some landings, or a specific maneuver however is easily done.

I personally would not have failed the student for failing to read the checklist. I would however fail a student for forgetting a checklist, improperly completing a checklist, or incomplete checks. Checklist usage is a special emphasis area on any and every PTS, yet everyone does them differently. I instructed with one syllabus that required the student to read the checklist aloud, and yet another only required silent completion. Another still only required the items to be completed from memory and no reference to a checklist at all! (not every checklist, but short often repetitive ones like maneuvering, or after take-off while in the pattern for circuit work)

Perhaps one item to include in briefing your students, and perhaps a question to ask your examiner; How do you want me/my student to complete checklists? Aloud? Silent? Read and do? Do then read? Perhaps this can eliminate further confusion or 'needless' retraining.
 
What all is on a checklist like that for a light complex? It's been so long that I really don't remember. In UPT we had to vocalize every checklist, but there's really no time to sit there and read each item - especially in close formation on the wing or in the pattern where primary focus should be towards not hitting other jets. That said checklist discipline is hammered into us from day one so we don't do something really stupid like come home with hot switches or leave the jet with a hot seat, but it's all done from memory.
 
We had someone bust a CFI reinstatement because he forgot to switch the transponder to ALT mode. They did the entire flight and I guess the examiner didn't notice until the CFI did the after landing checklist and realized he had never turned it on. The DPE charged him $100 and did a lap in the pattern with him 30 minutes later. I guess he had to pay off a gambling debt or something.
 
mhcasey said:
What all is on a checklist like that for a light complex? It's been so long that I really don't remember. In UPT we had to vocalize every checklist, but there's really no time to sit there and read each item - especially in close formation on the wing or in the pattern where primary focus should be towards not hitting other jets. That said checklist discipline is hammered into us from day one so we don't do something really stupid like come home with hot switches or leave the jet with a hot seat, but it's all done from memory.
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For aircraft that require simultaneous use of both hands to fly, I agree that doing it from memory is better.(safer)

If the examiner is asking you to be flying the plane, teaching, being critiqued, making radio calls and physically pick up a checklist, i dont think that is reasonable on the pattern.
 
I think only one or two in here have called this an bad bust. It's not. Is it a pointless bust? Sure. I've had students bust the initial cfi ride because of something insignificant yet legitimate. What really peeves me about this is that there really isn't any way to retrain for a brain fart. So now not only do I have retrain him for his bust but have to keep flying with him to keep him sharp for the month+ long wait before the fsdo can reschedule.

Really if this is going to turn into a months long process is a bust over something trivial really worth it to prove a point?
 
I didn't get a bust but got a scolding on a checkride for not having two pencil/pens on my multi-comm. He asked if I had two I said no only one. The next question was like well what if you drop that one. I wanted to be like well i'm just not gonna write it down retard. Wasn't the greatest of starts to a checkride
 
JDP said:
I didn't get a bust but got a scolding on a checkride for not having two pencil/pens on my multi-comm. He asked if I had two I said no only one. The next question was like well what if you drop that one. I wanted to be like well i'm just not gonna write it down retard. Wasn't the greatest of starts to a checkride
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I might even pick it up
 
I see two angles- the examiner busted him because technically, a checklist is there to make sure your memory hasn't failed you.

On the other hand, after another 0.5 of flight time to the guy's logbook, and hurting his chances at an airline, what exactly does the examiner hope will change? I've had those times when I've been so busy teaching that I've messed up in the pattern. I hope that doesn't make me a bad CFI. I acknowledged my mistake and tried to learn from it. I even pointed it out to the student so that he could learn from it too.

One item at the end of a good ride isn't a reason for a bust.
 
BrewMaster said:
I think the DPE may have noticed a theme throughout the checkride that he didn't like. Missing the checklist one time doesn't seem right during a checkride. Maybe the student was constantly not pulling it out or never read it once.
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No, actually I spoke directly to the inspector about everything. He told me my client did fine with the checklist at every other point in the flight. Taxi, takeoff, climb, simulated engine failure, etc., used the checklist correctly. It was just the descent/before landing checks that he didn't verify.

When I asked the inspector what sort of retraining he'd recommend for the applicant, he said, "Well, I know this all seems sort of frivolous, but it's a special emphasis item. You can go around the pattern with him a few times."

Whatever. I completed retraining with him this afternoon during three laps around the pattern. Retest is scheduled for Wednesday. I'll be glad to be done with this whole mess.

If I determine this is how the FSDO treats all CFI applicants, I'll probably decline to do initial CFI training in the future. Hopefully that's not the case.
 
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