Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours ...

Re: Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours

The problem lies in the liability of the whole mess. If a teacher fails to teach a kid which "there" to use, 50 people don't die in a news media hyped crash (hopefully)

Compounding the issue, was, the fact that Marvin failed to disclose some of the failures on his application documents. This was the stuff that PRIA was supposed to catch, but obviously did not. This made the FAA look pretty bad, and when the FAA looks bad they go after airlines. The Airlines then respond in a way that they think the FAA will approve of.


This has nothing to do with the abilities of the applicant, and it absolutely will not go away. They may eventually work out ways around it, but 3 fails will require special circumstances, and this will be beyond entering a pilot mentoring program.

If you think this isn't fair, go join the armed forces and try to fly a jet. People get washed out of those programs at the very beginning for crap reasons. If I recall, during IFS, if a candidate shows signs or symptoms of airsickness after the second stage, they may be washed... (they only have to sit in the back of a 172 in the middle of the hot summer doing stalls etc) Not only do they get washed from flight, but guess what, they're still in the AF.. so it's not like they can try somewhere else the next day.
 
Re: Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours

Soooo...do 141 stage check orals count for this? Cause, ya know, there's this "friend" I know...
 
Re: Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours

FAYEV said:
Soooo...do 141 stage check orals count for this? Cause, ya know, there's this "friend" I know...
Click to expand...

The ONLY 141 "failure" that would count as a checkride failure, in my mind, is an End of Course at a 141 school with self examining authority.
 
Re: Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours

LoadMasterC141 said:
It is kind of funny really. We are standing up to the TSA. Our unions are on TV telling the American public we won't go through Xray machines because they are unsafe, but we won't stand up and say that this stuff is stupid. Logic really is going out the window these days.
Click to expand...

From what I have seen, the unions could care less about the new guys coming in.
 
Re: Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours

FAYEV said:
Soooo...do 141 stage check orals count for this? Cause, ya know, there's this "friend" I know...
Click to expand...

Colgan requires that you disclose all training failures, and they are serious. Lots of people have been puked out of indoc and fired for failing to disclose. This also includes speeding tickets etc. they go through your background very thoroughly now. Don't lie to get in, you will get caught..and having that black mark is nearly the kiss of death for a pilot.

Be up front about your unsats, and be able to show a strong history of good checkride performance after the last fail...
 
Re: Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours

FAYEV said:
Soooo...do 141 stage check orals count for this? Cause, ya know, there's this "friend" I know...
Click to expand...
If you bust a 141 stage check, I have no idea how your future company would know unless you took them a copy of your training syllabus.
A regular old stage check isn't the end of the world and I hope, hope, hope students don't start showing up for them thinking it might be.
 
Re: Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours

PropDriver said:
Colgan also considers a stage check failure as part of a 141 training program equal to a checkride bust.

Retarded? I think so

Forgot to add:

Colgan also requires disclosure of any letter of discontinuance you have from any checkrides
Click to expand...

I think this is very unfortunate that airlines are this worried about part 61/141 busts. Its a silly, knee jerk reaction by the HR departments IMO
 
Re: Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours

FDX8891 said:
Somebody said something similar once on this forum, but having an airline not hire you because of a couple of checkride busts that occurred over 5-10 years ago is kind of like a school not hiring an english teacher because they bombed a couple spelling tests in 4th grade.
Click to expand...

exactly!
 
Re: Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours

One of the side effects of a changing seriousness towards one's training history.

I really can't say I blame them. Maintaining or exceeding standards is the new game within the 121 training community. As well as minimizing training failure risks.

Yeah it sucks, but as someone else said...there are a couple hundred thousand other flying opportunities out there besides the 121 world. Enjoy them.
 
Re: Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours

Not that I really want to go to the airlines, but if I did, this would make an outstanding excuse to not get my CFIs from the get go. Frankly, why would you want to if a bust in the CFI initial takes away half of your chances in the future. What if you bust 5 years latter for a crappy 6 month check while you're getting a divorce, or 10 years later from an addon rating you didn't take seriously or understand?

What if a guy going to the airlines busts his helicopter private addon, and his glider-CFI but aces his commercial, multi, CFI, CFII, MEI, and company checkrides for 10 years? This is a braindead rule.
 
Re: Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours

MR had multiple stage check busts for the same item...ended up being a big deal, and they were not disclosed.now they care, trust me.

If they were to ask for your taking records as a condition of employment, that is completely their call, and they are
Justified in asking for it. When straight out of college engineering firms ask to see your official transcripts. This is, and would be similar.

Each and every checking event counts.they are ask important, and should be treated as such.

I can almost promise you that part of the flight school exemption. From flight hours to be hired at an airline will include an open review of training records
 
Re: Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours

Too late for most of us, but I would recommend going to a 141 school with examining authority....no official "check ride" to fail....just an "achievement performance review" in which if any of the oral or flight maneuvers are unsat then the lesson is not signed off as complete until the unsat areas have been demonstrated within pts,.....in other words you cant really "fail" it as far as check ride failures go....
 
Re: Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours

kingdover said:
Too late for most of us, but I would recommend going to a 141 school with examining authority....no official "check ride" to fail....just an "achievement performance review" in which if any of the oral or flight maneuvers are unsat then the lesson is not signed off as complete until the unsat areas have been demonstrated within pts,.....in other words you cant really "fail" it as far as check ride failures go....
Click to expand...
From what I'm hearing, those are still considered failures in the eyes of the airlines. Consider you take probably over 10 stage checks at a 141, and probably 4 checkrides at a 61. I dunno what to believe anymore...
 
Re: Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours

FAYEV said:
From what I'm hearing, those are still considered failures in the eyes of the airlines. Consider you take probably over 10 stage checks at a 141, and probably 4 checkrides at a 61. I dunno what to believe anymore...
Click to expand...

The 141 school I used to work at wouldn't do the "Stage Check Paperwork" until the ride was completed successfully. If they failed it looked like they unsat'ed a lesson rather than a stage check. So we had no failures... per the paper trail
 
Re: Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours

FAYEV said:
From what I'm hearing, those are still considered failures in the eyes of the airlines. Consider you take probably over 10 stage checks at a 141, and probably 4 checkrides at a 61. I dunno what to believe anymore...
Click to expand...

The local Part 61 operator insists on the 61 students jumping through the 141 hoops with respect to stage checks and end of course evaluations. That said, none of 'em are considered training events in the eyes of the airlines if you're 61. Bust your stage check there under 61, so what, it's just another lesson but with the Chief FI/ACFI...but if you are 141, oh boy.
 
Re: Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours

I too think this 3 checkride failure thing is just a knee-jerk reaction, but at what point is too much? I know someone who has failed all of his part 61 checkrides. I've flown with this individual, and I can tell you he deserved all of those pink slips...
 
Re: Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours

141 schools that don't report till you pass may/ prob will get you in trouble once the fas adopts new training standards. As it was said before, colgan wants a letter of reason for something as small as a discontinue on a check ride. At 9l there is absolutly no leeway.

Im not trying to scare people away, but you can no longer treat a part 141 checking event like its " no big deal"

If I had to choose right now, I would train pt 61, and understand that I will need 1500 hours to get a 121 gig. The exception being, cfi/ii at a pt. 141 program that has examining authority. Traditionally the pass rate is better. If you have 2 busts before your cfi, I would take the 4-10k I was planning on spending on the cfi, and instead build time and get my multi atp, or at least 1500 hrs with a good 250-500 multi
 
skatergeek said:
I too think this 3 checkride failure thing is just a knee-jerk reaction, but at what point is too much? I know someone who has failed all of his part 61 checkrides. I've flown with this individual, and I can tell you he deserved all of those pink slips...
Click to expand...

The reason those rules exist is that the data has shown a clear correlation between checkride failures and success in 121 training. Our historical data showed that anyone with more than 2 failed checkrides was a risk, and more than 3 was almost certain to require extra training. Since it costs over $30,000 to train a new hire, the company doesn't want to pay even more.

And to answer your questions about 141 checkrides, if you were going to get a temporary airman certificate if you passed (new certificate or rating), that is a checkride as far as we are concerned. A failure then counts.
 
Re: Primary Checkride Failures haunting me after 2700 hours

PhilosopherPilot said:
The reason those rules exist is that the data has shown a clear correlation between checkride failures and success in 121 training. Our historical data showed that anyone with more than 2 failed checkrides was a risk, and more than 3 was almost certain to require extra training. Since it costs over $30,000 to train a new hire, the company doesn't want to pay even more.

And to answer your questions about 141 checkrides, if you were going to get a temporary airman certificate if you passed (new certificate or rating), that is a checkride as far as we are concerned. A failure then counts.
Click to expand...

I'm sure everyone 121 company has data to show a number of things. But i defy any of them to show a 500 hour pilot with zero failures is more capable than a 5000 hour pilot with three failures.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top