Gulfstream International Files for Chapter 11

I guess it's simple enough to say I don't agree with you guys regarding RJ programs, and I doubt I ever will for that matter.

During the heyday of hiring 250 hour wonders, RJ programs were sold as a way to get your foot in the door without instructing, or without towing banners, or without building some experience in any other way. At the time, some guys were quite literally passing their commercial checkrides and within days they were sitting in ground school at a part 121 carrier. These programs circumvented actual experience and put in its place a hallow promise that couldn't be kept; all you need to do is pass the interview, pass training and then get on the line, then you can get some real experience.

But this approach cheapens the position of being a first officer at any level. You are, fundamentally, a required crew member who is expected to be able to bring a certain depth of knowledge and experience to the position. These RJ courses did nothing to help with the professional development of people who would become our colleagues.

Read that phrase again; professional development. It's a concept that is often given little more than window dressing in this industry when times are moving quickly.

At this point in the industry, 2 years after the country's near economic collapse, folks have different opinions. To them, a $30,000 course that guarantees an interview with Pinnacle may seem acceptable. Why wouldn't it be? Things are moving slow, and this is expensive anyway, so what's another $30,000 when it's spent on "professional development" that will help you get your foot in the door?

The problem is that it's little more than window dressing, and develops nothing but the ability to play monkey see, monkey do. To wit, very little of this job is flying a picture perfect V1 cut or single engine ILS approach.

No, the professional development that is necessary in this industry, as in all industries, can't be bought. Outside of aviation circles people make cracks about those that are "highly educated" (masters/professional degrees) with no experience to correlate their education to the real world. These people are certainly qualified in a technical sense, but to many they are just as useless as any other new hire. Employers understand this with the realization that those with higher levels of education may be more trainable, but they are likely not superior to other candidates when it comes to skill sets.

Sadly, I believe this has been lost on us. We are, I believe fundamentally, goal oriented people, and thus if we achieve the goal that we set out to obtain, then the costs are justified in our own minds.

But they are not. The true cost to PFJ, RJ programs or anything other than a structured training regimen that teaches the fundamentals and gives us the tools necessary to not only survive in the cockpit, but grow during periods of building experience, is that of our professional discipline, respect and ability to develop ourselves as professionals.

There are guys at Gulfstream that did not PFJ. Those guys simply took a job that did what they needed any job to do; pay the bills. Truth be told the PFJ program went away a while ago if I remember correctly, but it was so muted that most of us probably didn't realize it. JetU is also but a memory to many of us.

But in the same way that J4J, the flow down at Beagle any many other roadblocks in our professional carrer are little more than memories at this point, without remembering them we are truly damned to repeat them.

I believe RJ programs fit into that category; things we need to remember because of the harm that they do to us as professionals. JetU might be gone, but somebody else will come up with a fantastic way to both steal our money and our integrity in order to "get ahead". I contend that these programs do not put us ahead, they put us behind.

Personal opinion, of course.

Very well said. And I don't disagree with you. My only question would be where do we place the blame for these? The place that provides an RJ program touting it as a way to get a "leg up" in flying an RJ for a regional? Or do we fault the particular airline who gives even the slightest extra hiring consideration for those who have gone through an RJ course in-lieu of other professional experience or development (or even in addition to said experience)? It seems if the airlines put no credence in such a course in the first place, then there wouldn't have been any training places who would bother to provide such a course. Or was there some kind of collusion between the two entities in order to make money for both, kickbacks, etc?
 
Very well said. And I don't disagree with you. My only question would be where do we place the blame for these? The place that provides an RJ program touting it as a way to get a "leg up" in flying an RJ for a regional? Or do we fault the particular airline who gives even the slightest extra hiring consideration for those who have gone through an RJ course in-lieu of other professional experience or development (or even in addition to said experience)? It seems if the airlines put no credence in such a course in the first place, then there wouldn't have been any training places who would bother to provide such a course. Or was there some kind of collusion between the two entities in order to make money for both, kickbacks, etc?

You know blame isn't something I'm really into these days, or with this issue. I mean at a point, what good does it do?

The good we can do is to not argue about hyperbole with this stuff, or treat it as if it's some esoteric confluence of madness that doesn't actually go on. The whole esoteric confluence of madness comes from bashing things into the ground over and over on forums, so maybe it's unavoidable. But I think when we hash things out over and over and over we start to develop legalistic approaches to these problems, which results in us drawing lines in the sand. Truth be told these "bright line rules" are what we strive for in flying airplanes; do this, don't do that.

But bright line rules aren't always applicable. So with this we try to put these problems into cute little boxes that we think we will help us, when it really just creates a hinderance because quite frankly, only one of a few things happens:

1. You get a few true blue believers that understand the damage that this does to us as professionals, and to the profession at large.

2. You get a very large number of people that just start tuning things out because of how legalistic these discussions get.

3. You get an equally large number of people who simply don't get it, or are more interested in putting their own self interest first and thus, create these knock down drag out fights.

4. Hackery and crap. I guess this is always an option.

So fundamentally I think looking at solutions is the most productive thing we can do, and I think there is a bright line mantra that, if we remember it, will almost always yield the best results: The professional development that is necessary in this industry cannot be bought.

You could call this an outgrowth, or natural extension, of Bill's now famous (on this website, at least) phrase, "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

I think if, as professionals, we remember these two things, we will provide ourselves with a pathway to productive solutions as opposed to the solutions that may provide individual, quick gratification, but diminish the professionalism of this industry.
 
Wow. What a thread.

I will put my two cents worth in as food for thought.

1. I don't believe anyone should be wishing anyone else bad luck or job loss.

2. If I were on the hiring board and I saw you post that you are glad someone is losing their job then I probably would not recommend you for hire if you applied at my airline. That might indicate you are difficult to get along and have a bad attitude. This business does not have time for difficult people with bad attitudes.

3. You never know who reads these boards.

4. Some of you have thousands of hours and can't understand why you are not hired, but someone with a whole lot less hours is offered a class date. Attitude is everything in this business.

Joe
 
I guess it's simple enough to say I don't agree with you guys regarding RJ programs, and I doubt I ever will for that matter.

During the heyday of hiring 250 hour wonders, RJ programs were sold as a way to get your foot in the door without instructing, or without towing banners, or without building some experience in any other way. At the time, some guys were quite literally passing their commercial checkrides and within days they were sitting in ground school at a part 121 carrier. These programs circumvented actual experience and put in its place a hallow promise that couldn't be kept; all you need to do is pass the interview, pass training and then get on the line, then you can get some real experience.

But this approach cheapens the position of being a first officer at any level. You are, fundamentally, a required crew member who is expected to be able to bring a certain depth of knowledge and experience to the position. These RJ courses did nothing to help with the professional development of people who would become our colleagues.

Read that phrase again; professional development. It's a concept that is often given little more than window dressing in this industry when times are moving quickly.

At this point in the industry, 2 years after the country's near economic collapse, folks have different opinions. To them, a $30,000 course that guarantees an interview with Pinnacle may seem acceptable. Why wouldn't it be? Things are moving slow, and this is expensive anyway, so what's another $30,000 when it's spent on "professional development" that will help you get your foot in the door?

The problem is that it's little more than window dressing, and develops nothing but the ability to play monkey see, monkey do. To wit, very little of this job is flying a picture perfect V1 cut or single engine ILS approach.

No, the professional development that is necessary in this industry, as in all industries, can't be bought. Outside of aviation circles people make cracks about those that are "highly educated" (masters/professional degrees) with no experience to correlate their education to the real world. These people are certainly qualified in a technical sense, but to many they are just as useless as any other new hire. Employers understand this with the realization that those with higher levels of education may be more trainable, but they are likely not superior to other candidates when it comes to skill sets.

Sadly, I believe this has been lost on us. We are, I believe fundamentally, goal oriented people, and thus if we achieve the goal that we set out to obtain, then the costs are justified in our own minds.

But they are not. The true cost to PFJ, RJ programs or anything other than a structured training regimen that teaches the fundamentals and gives us the tools necessary to not only survive in the cockpit, but grow during periods of building experience, is that of our professional discipline, respect and ability to develop ourselves as professionals.

There are guys at Gulfstream that did not PFJ. Those guys simply took a job that did what they needed any job to do; pay the bills. Truth be told the PFJ program went away a while ago if I remember correctly, but it was so muted that most of us probably didn't realize it. JetU is also but a memory to many of us.

But in the same way that J4J, the flow down at Beagle any many other roadblocks in our professional carrer are little more than memories at this point, without remembering them we are truly damned to repeat them.

I believe RJ programs fit into that category; things we need to remember because of the harm that they do to us as professionals. JetU might be gone, but somebody else will come up with a fantastic way to both steal our money and our integrity in order to "get ahead". I contend that these programs do not put us ahead, they put us behind.

Personal opinion, of course.

Not that my opinion matters to you, but I'll verbalize it anyway.

Well written.
 
Wow. You just described most all low-paying and lousy QOL regionals out there in the bolder part. Shoot them at sundown too?

What I described every single company out there- not just select regionals. A company exists to sell a product. Part of GIA's product happens to be this pilot school thing. If nobody bought it, then GIA would not sell it. Those individuals who decide to "buy their jobs" are the ones hurting us, not GIA.
 
What I described every single company out there- not just select regionals. A company exists to sell a product. Part of GIA's product happens to be this pilot school thing. If nobody bought it, then GIA would not sell it. Those individuals who decide to "buy their jobs" are the ones hurting us, not GIA.

So, even if we accept your belief that the buyers are the problem, what is your solution? Hating them? How does that solve anything? What is the solution to the problem? That is what you need to ask yourself. Hating these guys and wishing ill will upon them will only result in them hating your right back and turning their backs on their fellow pilots who have rejected them. Way to build unity!

No, the answer isn't hating people and wishing ill will. The answer is finding a way to eliminate the program itself. We have gone a long way towards accomplishing that with HR 5900, which requires 1500 hours and an ATP. When that provision goes into affect in a couple of years, PFJ programs will probably be a thing of the past. And if they are still hanging on by a thread, then the answer is to work to improve the law again, rather than just sitting back and hurling epithets at ignorant kids who buy into the PFJ sales jobs without knowing better.

It's time for this profession to start looking for solutions rather than trying to figure out who to blame. Then we might stand a chance of getting back to our former glory instead of continuing the slide into "just another job."
 
The answer is finding a way to eliminate the program itself. We have gone a long way towards accomplishing that with HR 5900, which requires 1500 hours and an ATP. When that provision goes into affect in a couple of years, PFJ programs will probably be a thing of the past. "

Actually I believe the ATP requirement could open up the door to a whole lot more of these PFJ programs. It will be one of the only ways available to get pilots in the right seat with less than 1500 hours if the "or an approved training program" part of the law is taken at face value.

Joe
 
NEVER HAPPEN! I have an adequate "Faye Dunaway" section of the spank-bank. I was simply looking to bolster it. If I admitted to Cirri love I'd probably have to start putting men in my spank-bank...because chutes are just ghey.
I will do as I said I would and forward the ENTIRE yearbook collection (she's hotter then than she was on screen). As far as Cirri love, admit to WANTING to fly one just once, and all is kosher.
Namaste.
As for you youngsters and your PFJ/PFT goes, it's bad joojoo. CFI, tow banners, bribe the guy who has a King Air with pics of him banging goats. Do what is right and you'll never have to question your integrity or your honor. Because at the end of the day, that's all you have.
I've been drinking heavily, forgive me if this makes no sense!
 
Good luck getting Key Bank to bite off on that one again!

There are plenty of ATP-qualified pilots out there, but the cost of entrance, vis a vis low entry pay, will be a problem.

Say if Drunken Beagle had 2000 hours, to turn away a six figure stable job to go make $16K and sit reserve in Tucson's not going to cut it.

I think the industry has found the bottom of the labor market. It's our job to use our Jedi and say, "Well, there is a solution young padawan...
 
OOoh, steak sounds good!

You know, I was going to say "Des Moines" but I'm sure I'd have about 10 "What's up with the Haterade?" texts!
 
OOoh, steak sounds good!

You know, I was going to say "Des Moines" but I'm sure I'd have about 10 "What's up with the Haterade?" texts!

When I'm done with my time in ABQ and back home here in TUS in a few weeks, you need to swing down.

Could be worse, he could be sitting reserve in Kingman.
 
Actually I believe the ATP requirement could open up the door to a whole lot more of these PFJ programs. It will be one of the only ways available to get pilots in the right seat with less than 1500 hours if the "or an approved training program" part of the law is taken at face value

Even the RAA is only suggesting a reduction to 500 hours minimum with qualifying education credits. That itself limits the pool of people available to these programs, since most guys won't be able to afford that much time building. But in reality, it's unlikely that the GIA style FO program will be included in the qualifying education credits. It is likely to be college level courses and military training that will get credits towards the 1500.
 
When I'm done with my time in ABQ and back home here in TUS in a few weeks, you need to swing down.

Could be worse, he could be sitting reserve in Kingman.

Ha! Bullhead Citaaaaaaay!
 
Even the RAA is only suggesting a reduction to 500 hours minimum with qualifying education credits. That itself limits the pool of people available to these programs, since most guys won't be able to afford that much time building. But in reality, it's unlikely that the GIA style FO program will be included in the qualifying education credits. It is likely to be college level courses and military training that will get credits towards the 1500.

With close to 18,900 new United States airline pilots needed just to comply with the proposed new workrules which take effect on August 1, 2011, there simply aren't enough, JCer's, furloughed pilots, out of work commercial pilots, military pilots and college level course students available to fill these positions. The only method left is the PFJ type model. It might be modified some, with a refund after working for a certain time period, but my opinion is this is the last place this industry can go to fill the jobs with American citizens.

This does not account for any growth in the industry or any pilots leaving the industry.

I believe the requirements for getting hired in 2011 will be back down to 250 hours as the rush to comply with the August 1, 2011 work rules starts to hit home. Yes pilots of airliners really do need 8 hours of sleep per night in order to safely carry passengers around.

This is going to hit the regionals pretty hard because the majors will pull their new pilots from the regionals, but even those numbers are going to get slim as multi year regional captains choose to stay at the regionals rather than take a pay cut to go to the majors.

Joe
 
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