Advice on flying ME Pistons and larger airplanes

djh1007

djh1007

Flying Squirrel Trainee
Hello all,

Long time lurker here who posts little!

So I'm working on my CMEL in the Seneca and I'm just looking for some advice. So far I have no problems flying the airplane, but when to comes to landings, it a different story. So far I've discovered that the Seneca flies just like any other plane (duh?), but I'm not having the same ease at landing. I've got ~200 hours know so I (sort of :)) know how to land.

Just looking for tips in general when flying twins and airplanes larger than a 172!
 
Well first off, welcome!

What is it exactly that you're having trouble with? The approach? The actual touchdown? If it's the last 1\4 mile, are you taking the throttle all the way out? I know many people who go from a 172\PA28 to a larger plane, forget that they can't simply chop the power when they would with a skyhawk and assume the same results. You need to fly the airplane onto the runway. Let us know what it is you're exactly having trouble with though!
 
Mark815 said:
Well first off, welcome!

What is it exactly that you're having trouble with? The approach? The actual touchdown? If it's the last 1\4 mile, are you taking the throttle all the way out? I know many people who go from a 172\PA28 to a larger plane, forget that they can't simply chop the power when they would with a skyhawk and assume the same results. You need to fly the airplane onto the runway. Let us know what it is you're exactly having trouble with though!
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:

If it's just the speed difference (don't remember how much of a difference there is) all it takes is prior planning. Speaking of planning, a good landing starts with a good approach. Configured and on-speed at 500' above touchdown minimizes the stuff you have to mess with when your primary considerations should be airspeed, glide path, and alignment. Might help you there.

If it's sight picture, one trick I use is to remember what things look like at rotation.
 
basically I'm fine until the last 50' or so. All my touchdowns have been FIRM, haha. I've got about 100 hours in the Liberty XL-2, and for those unfamiliar with it, it lands pretty flat. I think my biggest problem is not flaring enough.

I did my complex in the Arrow and have 15 hours in it, So I familiar with complex a/c, I Guess part of my problem is adjusting to the increased speed and decreased time available to configure the a/c and actually fly the plane.
 
Piper twins:
Don't over flare.
My best landings are when my nose wheel is barely above the pavement when the mains touch.
 
djh1007 said:
basically I'm fine until the last 50' or so. All my touchdowns have been FIRM, haha. I've got about 100 hours in the Liberty XL-2, and for those unfamiliar with it, it lands pretty flat. I think my biggest problem is not flaring enough.

I did my complex in the Arrow and have 15 hours in it, So I familiar with complex a/c, I Guess part of my problem is adjusting to the increased speed and decreased time available to configure the a/c and actually fly the plane.
Click to expand...
That goes away with practice and a little chair flying/visualization, just as it did in primary. :)
Douglas said:
Piper twins:
Don't over flare.
My best landings are when my nose wheel is barely above the pavement when the mains touch.
Click to expand...
Something like that...don't land it on all three. I've only got two landings in a Seneca, but lots of Seminole time, and it's important to flare "just enough" - don't land on all three, but also don't hold the airplane off too long as it's difficult to prevent a rather vigorous derotation if you do.
 
I'm willing to bet it's a sight picture problem.

Try this:
On takeoff apply only 3/4 throttle. Just enough to get the nose up, but not enough to go flying. Hold it there until you can get the sight picture. If you have enough runway left, go flying, if not exit and taxi back.

Once you get to know the airplane better you can either do a few things over the fence. But for learning, leave a little bit of power on until the nose wheel is down. This will give you a softer landing. Once you get to know it better, you can chop the power over the fence and get the same soft landing, but that involves knowing the airplanes energy ie combo of weight and speed. (dynamic).
 
Seneca I.... lots of nose up trim, nail 90mph short final with a bit of power, close throttles over the fence...hold attitude, don't over flare it...

Usually works 100% of the time 95% of the time
 
Those Piper stabilators don't like being even a little bit slow on landing or they run out of travel and authority and you plant it (and I've never flown a Seneca but I hear they're easy to plant on the nose gear first as well). Get used to nailing the speed that works for you and you'll be golden :)

I got so good at landing the short wing/short stab Arrow I couldn't land anything else for a while :P
 
Trim is your best friend in the piper twins, or at least the ones with the stabilators.
 
djh1007 said:
I did my complex in the Arrow and have 15 hours in it, So I familiar with complex a/c, I Guess part of my problem is adjusting to the increased speed and decreased time available to configure the a/c and actually fly the plane.
Click to expand...

There's never a decrease in the amount of time available to configure. If you're rushed, configure earlier or go around. :)
 
djh1007 said:
All my touchdowns have been FIRM, haha. I've got about 100 hours in the Liberty XL-2, and for those unfamiliar with it, it lands pretty flat. I think my biggest problem is not flaring enough.
Click to expand...

It IS possible to land the Seneca softly, nose high, power off, so don't let anyone convince you to land flat or leave power in until touchdown. Some ballast in the luggage compartment helps, as does nose up trim on short final, but if you've got a strong arm, you can do it in spite of not having those things. The best technique is a good steady pullback while in ground effect and the momentum will help you get nose high. Like most Pipers, you can increase the rate of pull back as the nose gets higher and you won't balloon, but it will be enough to get a soft landing.
 
I also agree that you can land in a high nose attitude.

Its like arguing with tailwheel pilots that say to do a wheel landing you need to land in a level pitch attitude. Just because they can not do a wheel landing in a 3 point attitude does not mean it can not be done.

In fact if you truely want to do a short field landing it take more nose high attitude attitude then most pilots do. I fly weekly into a mountain strip that many pilots would over run if they did there normal landing there.
 
Before you two turn this in to a debate, the op asked for ways to skin the cat, and we are giving it to him.
 
djh1007 said:
basically I'm fine until the last 50' or so. All my touchdowns have been FIRM, haha. I've got about 100 hours in the Liberty XL-2, and for those unfamiliar with it, it lands pretty flat. I think my biggest problem is not flaring enough.

I did my complex in the Arrow and have 15 hours in it, So I familiar with complex a/c, I Guess part of my problem is adjusting to the increased speed and decreased time available to configure the a/c and actually fly the plane.
Click to expand...


I think you're flying that Liberty wrong. It's a great airplane, and it should flare just as much as any other light single.

It's common for new multi pilots to chop the throttle too early. Now you have twice the frontal area in the rotating discs creating drag (remember why you'd feather a prop?) and adding difficulty to the landing. Leave the power up until right before touchdown.
 
Thanks for all the replies guys. So far I've only got 2 hours in the Seneca, but I am one who likes to be proficient at things from the get go. I realize that there's a learning curve and that I am hard on myself, but all I'm trying to do is get better :)

I have been taught to slowly "walk the power out", so that the throttle is out by the time the mains touch down. As one poster suggested that my sight picture is off, I would agree. I think that once I figure out it what it is "supposed" to look like I will be on my way to softer touchdowns! I've got three flights scheduled this week, with one dedicated to solely takeoffs and landings; I will report back later at the end of the week.

I think that the Liberty is a good airplane, if it had 4 seats it would be a great airplane ;)

P.S.
I don't think that I am flying or landing the Liberty wrong. I can grease the landings and plant the thing wherever I want, but it sure appears to me that it likes to land flatter than say a 172. I think this flatter sight picture has been ingrained into my brain, and I am struggling to overcome it when landing other airplanes.
 
CFI A&P said:
I think you're flying that Liberty wrong. It's a great airplane, and it should flare just as much as any other light single.

It's common for new multi pilots to chop the throttle too early. Now you have twice the frontal area in the rotating discs creating drag (remember why you'd feather a prop?) and adding difficulty to the landing. Leave the power up until right before touchdown.
Click to expand...

Once you get familiar with the airplane, you'll know when it's safe to chop 'em and drop 'em. (This is true of any machine really, but especially when you're transitioning to twins.)

I have been taught to slowly "walk the power out", so that the throttle is out by the time the mains touch down. As one poster suggested that my sight picture is off, I would agree. I think that once I figure out it what it is "supposed" to look like I will be on my way to softer touchdowns! I've got three flights scheduled this week, with one dedicated to solely takeoffs and landings; I will report back later at the end of the week.
Click to expand...
I actually left power on too long when I flew the 'nole initially, which lead to certain obvious problems. I can't really explain why that is, but it's what I did. Once you get down in ground effect, put them in idle. (This is my experience in the Seminole, power on until ground effect - your Seneca, and experience, may vary.)
 
Pipers are generally pretty heavy in the flare. You will probably need to start using a little power (they don't float like cessnas do, esp the heavier ones), and use some nose up trim going into the flare.
 
Although I'm certainly not that experienced my experience of the transition is pretty recent.

I have been taught to slowly "walk the power out", so that the throttle is out by the time the mains touch down.
Click to expand...

In my opinion this is exactly what it should be like. To be honest I think you'll find that you have a lot more control over the landing then you did in the 172.... the 172 will float over the runway (especially a hot one) for what seems like days. I always found that I could control the decent rate in the Seminole a lot more firmly with power than I could with the 172. You have to be a lot more stabilized on the approach though, but if you are the last 50' should be a slow transition of bringing the power back and gradually raising the nose.... Short Fields in the Seminole were in my opinion much easier to nail than in a 172. I could land the Seminole on a dime 90% of the time. Now after a year and a half I'm back in the Cessna and although still within PTS most of the time... I'm nowhere near as precise.

I wouldn't be too worried after 2 hours of flight time.... you'll get it. Enjoy the twin.... it's a lot more fun.

I'll also add that landings to me in the Seminole always felt much firmer than a Cessna because I think the struts do a lot better job absorbing the impact than the shocks on the Seminole.....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top