Advice on flying ME Pistons and larger airplanes

Autothrust Blue said:
Once you get familiar with the airplane, you'll know when it's safe to chop 'em and drop 'em. (This is true of any machine really, but especially when you're transitioning to twins
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True - I don't know how other 421 guys do it... but I don't go full forward with the props. Tried that in a Seneca the other day.. worked fine... seemed a lot more stable landing... came to idle across the fence... easy landing.
 
ryan1234 said:
True - I don't know how other 421 guys do it... but I don't go full forward with the props. Tried that in a Seneca the other day.. worked fine... seemed a lot more stable landing... came to idle across the fence... easy landing.
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Yeah, I did that once in a 421—props all the way up, and yarded the power off with about 15' to go. The results weren't pretty. The airplane was perfectly fine, but the martinis in back got spilled. :( Incidentally, running that engine way undersquare (that is, very high RPM and low manifold pressure) is pretty bad for them (gearbox chatter much?). The GO-480s in the Twin Bonanza I fly are operated at 2600 (cruise) or max 2800 (climb) RPM in the pattern after the initial climb segment for that reason - gearboxes expensive...if I need more I can push the prop levers up.

Pushing the props up also tends to tick off the neighbors. I'm not a fly-quiet Nazi, but I do try.
 
djh1007 said:
Thanks for all the replies guys. So far I've only got 2 hours in the Seneca, but I am one who likes to be proficient at things from the get go. I realize that there's a learning curve and that I am hard on myself, but all I'm trying to do is get better :)

I have been taught to slowly "walk the power out", so that the throttle is out by the time the mains touch down. As one poster suggested that my sight picture is off, I would agree. I think that once I figure out it what it is "supposed" to look like I will be on my way to softer touchdowns! I've got three flights scheduled this week, with one dedicated to solely takeoffs and landings; I will report back later at the end of the week.

I think that the Liberty is a good airplane, if it had 4 seats it would be a great airplane ;)

P.S.
I don't think that I am flying or landing the Liberty wrong. I can grease the landings and plant the thing wherever I want, but it sure appears to me that it likes to land flatter than say a 172. I think this flatter sight picture has been ingrained into my brain, and I am struggling to overcome it when landing other airplanes.
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If you really want to get proficient with a new airplane (particularly an airplane that's a significant step up from what you've been flying), I might suggest first learning how to land it at the prescribed speed, in the touchdown zone, on the centerline. I know that's basic, but I've seen more than enough people happily float their way down the runway trying to make it smooth, all the while leaving the touchdown zone 1000' behind the airplane. Greaser landings are kinda like doing curls in the gym; sure, they're fun and the girls like them, but it's all for show. Real proficiency is doing it right, even if it's a little firmer than you'd like.

After you get the basic proficiency down in that airplane, then you can go for style points by trying to make it smooth. :D
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Yeah, I did that once in a 421—props all the way up, and yarded the power off with about 15' to go. The results weren't pretty. The airplane was perfectly fine, but the martinis in back got spilled.
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Ha - I did the same thing! Just doing typical Multi-Engine what they teach you getting your ME rating.... I'm a pretty big fan of leaving the props where they're at (cruise) in most all twins
 
ryan1234 said:
Ha - I did the same thing! Just doing typical Multi-Engine what they teach you getting your ME rating.... I'm a pretty big fan of leaving the props where they're at (cruise) in most all twins
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You're probably not going to do too much damage if you need to go around as long as you are smart about it. If you're so stuffed up you can't mash on the prop levers followed by the throttles, you're probably hosed anyway. (On a tight approach or if a go around appears imminent in the Twin Bonanza, we stand the prop levers up to the climb power setting, but rarely any higher unless density altitude is high or the airplane's quite heavy.)
 
The Seneca specifically tends to be slippery, and will flat a log way if you have power in the flare. I like a fast approach, pull all the power off over the fence and then a fairly flat attitude to landing. You can hold it off all the way, but that will sometimes lead to the nose coming down harder than I like. Beyond that, it's actually one of my favourite airplanes to fly. It carries ice well, and gets off the ground quickly. The big downside for me is the 14V electrics. Not great for starting in the cold, and the hot plate and prop heat just aren't powerful enough. The heater could work (better) too! I'm told the stabilator is a real weakness, and I know of at least one in flight separation. Vno is Vne.
 
I typically keep some power in to the level off and then reduce power for the flare and landing.
 
Hey Guys!
Just a quick update: Did 1.1 of nothing but different kinds of takeoffs and landings. They all went smoothly except for the last. It was a short field landing, and I was too fixated on ridding the minor engine manifold pressure imbalance on short final, and was as a result I ended up 5 knots too fast. This resulted in 1 bounce when I tried to get it down to hit my spot.

I learned that the most important thing is being configured and stabilized shortly after turning final! When I was on speed and stabilized the landings were smooth, without floating or firmness.

The tips about adding a little trim and working to figure out the sight picture were invaluable. It's amazing how much better I feel after only an hourish of landings.

Thanks for the tips guys.
 
tgrayson said:
Being too fast on final never causes a bounce; failing to keep the nose off the ground does that.
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ok, forcing errr coercing the airplane to land before its ready on a spot whilst carrying too much speed and power into touchdown contributed to my bounced landing :)
 
djh1007 said:
When I was on speed and stabilized the landings were smooth, without floating or firmness.
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You found the magic formula.

Remember, hitting your spot, on centerline is job #1. After you can do that, one worries about the grease.
 
I'm currently flying around in a Seneca II. Having flown about a dozen or so "light" aircraft >12,500 lbs, I have found the Seneca to be the most challenging to land correctly. I'm sure you are doing everything right on paper. It's just a little bit of finesse to get it dialed in right. Not tooting my own horn, but having flown with a fair amount of FOs in smaller aircraft, they gave me feedback of having some of the smoothest landings in the bases I was working at. Sadly, my usual techniques aren't working as well as they did on the Seneca II. After putting a decent amount of time in it, I've found the best technique for those "greasers" is to crack the throttles above idle even into the flair and as the plane settles, pull them out, pitch up a little bit and it should settle nicely. Then keep pitching up slightly slower than the rate of the nose drop and it should settle nicely as well. I didn't catch it, but whats your time? Whats your time in the aircraft and time in ME aircraft? Talking to the other Seneca crews, we all agree that the aircraft is a bit of a fun challenge to get those passenger impressed landings, but they come!
 
djh1007 said:
I don't think that I am flying or landing the Liberty wrong. I can grease the landings and plant the thing wherever I want, but it sure appears to me that it likes to land flatter than say a 172.
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Passengers grade landings on how softly the plane touches the runway, but pilots don't have that luxury. As a pilot you have to grade yourself on the entire landing, which starts at pattern altitude.

I teach in the Liberty & C-172 and I previously owned a Seneca. I wouldn't say any of the land especially flat. You may just be getting used to a different sight picture based on the lower instrument panel of the XL2. The two things I'd tell you to work on are a stabilized approach (where you are in the same parameters every time) and then once you start your flare, try to keep the airplane flying as long as you can. If you focus on those two things you should see a big improvement in your landings.
 
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