Gulfstream International Files for Chapter 11

Doug Taylor said:
Assinine
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hank-hill.jpg

First thought.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Not cranky, it just reminds me of when a parent tries to negotiate with a precocious 10 year old.

"Clean your room"

"Technically I already did"

"It's not clean enough. Go clean your room"

"By who's standard?"

Beat his ass, show him what time it is and then make him do it! :)
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Daddy Dough, I already cleaned my room, please don't beat me. I'm running out of excuses at school. :)
 
WacoFan said:
I hate Cirrus for the same reason I hate many airplanes. It has a nosewheel and is powered by a horizontally opposed engine. I can take one or the other if I have to - a radial powered nosedragger (F7F, T-28, B-25, etc) or a horizontally opposed taildragger (Luscombe, Cub, C-180/185, Pitts, etc) but I can't take both.
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Admit you love Cirri and their pilots or NO FAYE DUNAWAY pics for you!
I'd love to return to the age of oil spitting, fire breathing, noob killing, radial engines. Nothing sexier than hearing a Wasp come to life.
 
Pilotforhire587 said:
And just two years ago a man who's life was falling apart flew a cirrus into the IRS federal building in Austin, TX. Last time I flew either of these aircraft I am pretty sure the cirrus is much smaller than the 1900, Yet it still killed numerous people and destroyed a building!
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I believe the Austin IRS terrorist only killed himself, do you have a link to prove more died other than this terrorist himself?
 
NJA_Capt said:
GMAB. Part of GIA's marketing has been to "get the time" so you can advance quicker. It is the poster child for PFJ. Justify it any way you want....but it is lipstick on a pig.

So, their schemes make yours less bad? Yea.


Thank you for making my point.....The fact that you (and hundreds of others) took a shortcut, advanced you to a position that would have been otherwise been held by someone who chose to stand by their integrity.


Or.....

Maybe this is the karma is coming back. The GIA supporters are trying to "dress it up" so they can feel nice about themselves, and some of us aren't buying it.
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Excuse me? Took a shortcut and otherwise the position held by someone who shose to stand by their integrity?

A few questions:

1. Integrity of what, exactly?

2. What rule did I break?

3. Did I do something that [insert any other pilot] couldn't do?

Sorry for my negative tone, but it's tiring to hear about how I took away a job from more honest pilots, when I NEVER did PFJ. All I did is what THOUSANDS of pilots have done: simply did a RJ course. I took NO jobs from anyone. And all I got out of this RJ program was a CHANCE to interview at a regional. The SAME chance available to EVERY OTHER PILOT out there. And with that CHANCE of interview, I got hired. NO other pilot was hampered from getting on at my regional when I got hired.

So on what basis are you accusing me of taking a job from more "honest" pilots?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
The SAME chance available to EVERY OTHER PILOT out there.
So on what basis are you accusing me of taking a job from more "honest" pilots?
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I'm guessing it's because by your willingness to shell out the wampum and take the RJ course you have disqualified other (otherwise qualified candidates) from ever getting a call to interview just because they didn't take the RJ course. The regionals love guys who take the RJ course because it gives them some slight amount of familiarity with turbojet systems and flows and checklists. All stuff that can be taught in a day or so of ground school. But by preferring to hire guys who have taken a course, the airline is able to save a little bit of time and money.

Of course all that "sim" time (either FTD or real sim) isn't really very useful once the guy gets out on line but at that point the airline can pretty much wash their hands of the guy and let the line captains deal with the problem. Meanwhile, a candidate who may actually be a better pilot, and would have grasped 121 flying much more quickly is stuck doing banner tows or CFIing because he didn't pony up the money to take the RJ course and get on the VIP list.

So no, you didn't take any jobs from anybody. But you did make it that much harder for guys to get jobs by limiting their chances of getting a call for an interview with out them first taking an all but useless training class.
 
BobDDuck said:
I'm guessing it's because by your willingness to shell out the wampum and take the RJ course you have disqualified other (otherwise qualified candidates) from ever getting a call to interview just because they didn't take the RJ course. The regionals love guys who take the RJ course because it gives them some slight amount of familiarity with turbojet systems and flows and checklists. All stuff that can be taught in a day or so of ground school. But by preferring to hire guys who have taken a course, the airline is able to save a little bit of time and money.

Of course all that "sim" time (either FTD or real sim) isn't really very useful once the guy gets out on line but at that point the airline can pretty much wash their hands of the guy and let the line captains deal with the problem. Meanwhile, a candidate who may actually be a better pilot, and would have grasped 121 flying much more quickly is stuck doing banner tows or CFIing because he didn't pony up the money to take the RJ course and get on the VIP list.

So no, you didn't take any jobs from anybody. But you did make it that much harder for guys to get jobs by limiting their chances of getting a call for an interview with out them first taking an all but useless training class.
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This is a weak argument. "because by your willingness to shell out the wampum and take the RJ course you have disqualified other (otherwise qualified candidates) from ever getting a call to interview just because they didn't take the RJ course"

First of all, I cannot disqualify you. That's just ridiculous.

It's like you and I both have a bachelors degree for an engineering position (bachelors analogy being the bare minimum Comm-Inst-ME), and then I decide to spend extra time and money to get a masters degree (masters analogy being the RJ program), and then I get called for the interview, and you don't? How is that my fault? The way I see it, I made myself more competitive than the rest of the pool. That's precisely what it is. You and are others here are making a weak lame argument.

And yes, I have a bachelor in engineering, and got passed over by others equally qualified, even though I had more work experience, but they came straight out of college with a bachelor AND a masters. For the engineering company they didn't want a bachelor with a year of work experience. They wanted that college grad with a bachelor, no work experience, and masters. But I didn't lose any tears over it. If I wanted, I too could "pony up the money" and go get a masters.

"So no, you didn't take any jobs from anybody. But you did make it that much harder for guys to get jobs by limiting their chances of getting a call for an interview with out them first taking an all but useless training class."
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You know, by training classes if you put in masters classes, the same argument can be said for bachelors degree and master degree. Sorry, but those who spent the extra time and money to get a masters degree have stood out of the crowd and are more likely to get hired. You, with your bachelors degree, will either have to get a masters to be competitive, get left behind, or continue working hard to build more work experience and then get hired without a masters. Step back and take a look, it is the EXACT same situation.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
This is a weak argument. "because by your willingness to shell out the wampum and take the RJ course you have disqualified other (otherwise qualified candidates) from ever getting a call to interview just because they didn't take the RJ course"

First of all, I cannot disqualify you. That's just ridiculous.

It's like you and I both have a bachelors degree for an engineering position (bachelors analogy being the bare minimum Comm-Inst-ME), and then I decide to spend extra time and money to get a masters degree (masters analogy being the RJ program), and then I get called for the interview, and you don't? How is that my fault? The way I see it, I made myself more competitive than the rest of the pool. That's precisely what it is. You and are others here are making a weak lame argument.

And yes, I have a bachelor in engineering, and got passed over by others equally qualified, even though I had more work experience, but they came straight out of college with a bachelor AND a masters. For the engineering company they didn't want a bachelor with a year of work experience. They wanted that college grad with a bachelor, no work experience, and masters. But I didn't lose any tears over it. If I wanted, I too could "pony up the money" and go get a masters.


"So no, you didn't take any jobs from anybody. But you did make it that much harder for guys to get jobs by limiting their chances of getting a call for an interview with out them first taking an all but useless training class."

You know, by training classes if you put in masters classes, the same argument can be said for bachelors degree and master degree. Sorry, but those who spent the extra time and money to get a masters degree have stood out of the crowd and are more likely to get hired. You, with your bachelors degree, will either have to get a masters to be competitive, get left behind, or continue working hard to build more work experience and then get hired without a masters. Step back and take a look, it is the EXACT same situation.
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I won't get involved in this discussion other than to say I think you make some good points in your post
 
jtrain609 said:
Going to JetU, as you did, is not the analogue to going to graduate school.
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closer to taking a weekend course at the local community college.

cherokee_cruiser, did you buy time at gulfstream? if not, why are you getting worked around the axle?
 
BobDDuck said:
I'm guessing it's because by your willingness to shell out the wampum and take the RJ course you have disqualified other (otherwise qualified candidates) from ever getting a call to interview just because they didn't take the RJ course. The regionals love guys who take the RJ course because it gives them some slight amount of familiarity with turbojet systems and flows and checklists. All stuff that can be taught in a day or so of ground school. But by preferring to hire guys who have taken a course, the airline is able to save a little bit of time and money.

Of course all that "sim" time (either FTD or real sim) isn't really very useful once the guy gets out on line but at that point the airline can pretty much wash their hands of the guy and let the line captains deal with the problem. Meanwhile, a candidate who may actually be a better pilot, and would have grasped 121 flying much more quickly is stuck doing banner tows or CFIing because he didn't pony up the money to take the RJ course and get on the VIP list.

So no, you didn't take any jobs from anybody. But you did make it that much harder for guys to get jobs by limiting their chances of getting a call for an interview with out them first taking an all but useless training class.
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While I see the argument and the angle it comes from, the tough part is where is the demarcation line for the right versus wrong?

For example, I can see PFJ in the sense of someone that otherwise wouldn't be qualified or competitive, but is (for example) some rich kid who can just go and buy right seat time.....thus taking up what would otherwise be a paid position and then working himself up the ladder via an "end run". I can see that.

The problem that arises with "limiting the chance for someone else to get a call or interview" by taking an RJ class, worthless or not, is how does that get applied? Could a civilian pilot blame a military pilot because the civilian pilot didn't get the benefit of military experience while competing for a particular job......ie- did the mil pilot take away anything from the civvie? Or, does someone who goes out and purchases (maybe, invests is a better word) in the 737 type, versus the guy that doesn't (since IIRC, its not needed for the interview, just the job....correct me if I'm wrong)?

Where does the line get drawn of when it goes from OK to not-OK? Thats my curiousity, because there seems to be some overlap with the different possible scenarios.

It's indeed an interesting thing to look at, since the term PFJ gets tossed around alot, yet there's no "hard" definition to it......unlike, for example, the term scab, which is misused alot but there is a hard definition for it.
 
MikeD said:
While I see the argument and the angle it comes from, the tough part is where is the demarcation line for the right versus wrong?

For example, I can see PFJ in the sense of someone that otherwise wouldn't be qualified or competitive, but is (for example) some rich kid who can just go and buy right seat time.....thus taking up what would otherwise be a paid position. I can see that.

The problem that arises with "limiting the chance for someone else to get a call or interview" by taking an RJ class, worthless or not, is how does that get applied? Could a civilian pilot blame a military pilot because the civilian pilot didn't get the benefit of military experience while competing for a job......ie- did the mil pilot take away anything from the civvie? Or, does someone who goes out and purchases (maybe, invests is a better word) in the 737 type, versus the guy that doesn't (since IIRC, its not needed for the interview, just the job....correct me if I'm wrong)?

Where does the line get drawn of when it goes from OK to not-OK? Thats my curiousity, because there seems to be some overlap with the different possible scenarios.

It's indeed an interesting thing to look at, since the term PFJ gets tossed around alot, yet there's no "hard" definition to it......unlike, for example, the term scab, which is misused alot but there is a hard definition for it.
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i don't think it's a moral type issue, but ordinarily, if you have to buy training specific to the job, it's a fairly solid red flag that the job is going to suck.
 
gne in prog said:
closer to taking a weekend course at the local community college.

cherokee_cruiser, did you buy time at gulfstream? if not, why are you getting worked around the axle?
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He's a JetU graduate, and believes that it's necessary to defend all PFJ operations.
 
gne in prog said:
i don't think it's a moral type issue, but ordinarily, if you have to buy training specific to the job, it's a fairly solid red flag that the job is going to suck.
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Which I agree with you in principle. But the problem that now arises (in the sense of the overlapping scenarios I mentioned), is how would this apply to, say, SWA then? Would it be in the same league, or different? Or how about any kind of training for a job thats considered a "pre-requisite" for qualification that one may not readily have on then logbook, but can go get.....say a tailwheel endorsement, or a mountain flying course, or a sling-load course, etc, etc? Where is that line drawn?
 
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