v1valarob
Well-Known Member
Yes and Yes.
Spring 07' hires are upgraded now, or are going through upgrade. Depending on hours, summer/fall 07' hires are going through upgrade.
Yes, it's that time again... Quickest upgrade?
- Thread starter Mattio
- Start date
Yes and Yes.
Spring 07' hires are upgraded now, or are going through upgrade. Depending on hours, summer/fall 07' hires are going through upgrade.
CRJDriver
Well-Known Member
Well, I can see that Mattio is in a hurry to upgrade and move on to bigger things, otherwise he wouldn't have started this thread and the other entitled "when do the floodgates open?"
If you really want to get some TPIC "quick", then probably flying freight at AMF, etc. would be your best bet. That's just my guess.
If you really want to get some TPIC "quick", then probably flying freight at AMF, etc. would be your best bet. That's just my guess.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
While it appears that there is going to be significant hiring on the horizon, I think it's a little early in the cycle to be calling early upgrades.
That being said, dumb luck and mediocrity got me a job at a carrier that was a no-where with 4+ year upgrades in '98 to the mighty J31. That definitely wasn't the place to be, however history proved otherwise.
There are different paths to get where you want, and one needs a rational reflection in this rather than overextended optimism.
The reality is that if you want turbine PIC, go do single pilot 135. The OP seems to have the minimums, he's already been to the 121 show and pulled the plug even though tprops are the next big thing
rolleyes.
If you want to fly 121, go fly 121, but don't expect a quick upgrade. If it happens, great! If not, don't be disappointed. For any records of feelings of being stuck as a FO, or getting an upgrade out of seniority sequence, just look back at the last two years of postings. Sure, there are going to be attrition based upgrades, and that may wax and wane dependent on hiring cycles. Unlike the last decade, the combination of high attrition and high growth isn't very feasible. There might be one or two airlines out there that really grow, but it's not going to be an industry-wide phenomenon as it was with the RJ. If anything, there will be a fleet-exchange going on, turning in 90's era RJs for the Next-Gen tprops (of 80's lineage - go figure).
If you want Turbine PIC, go fly 135, but don't expect the CBA and workrules of most 121 carriers. Expect to be on a short leash with the company, then work your way back up the ladder.
I guess it's official: the career ladder of the pre-2000 craziness is back in place.
Everyone back in line....
Good luck
That being said, dumb luck and mediocrity got me a job at a carrier that was a no-where with 4+ year upgrades in '98 to the mighty J31. That definitely wasn't the place to be, however history proved otherwise.
There are different paths to get where you want, and one needs a rational reflection in this rather than overextended optimism.
The reality is that if you want turbine PIC, go do single pilot 135. The OP seems to have the minimums, he's already been to the 121 show and pulled the plug even though tprops are the next big thing
rolleyes. If you want to fly 121, go fly 121, but don't expect a quick upgrade. If it happens, great! If not, don't be disappointed. For any records of feelings of being stuck as a FO, or getting an upgrade out of seniority sequence, just look back at the last two years of postings. Sure, there are going to be attrition based upgrades, and that may wax and wane dependent on hiring cycles. Unlike the last decade, the combination of high attrition and high growth isn't very feasible. There might be one or two airlines out there that really grow, but it's not going to be an industry-wide phenomenon as it was with the RJ. If anything, there will be a fleet-exchange going on, turning in 90's era RJs for the Next-Gen tprops (of 80's lineage - go figure).
If you want Turbine PIC, go fly 135, but don't expect the CBA and workrules of most 121 carriers. Expect to be on a short leash with the company, then work your way back up the ladder.
I guess it's official: the career ladder of the pre-2000 craziness is back in place.
Everyone back in line....
Good luck
Mattio
Well-Known Member
Yea, it wasn't an easy decision to leave.
Do I know you? PM me your name if you so choose
Mattio
Well-Known Member
Correct. That fueled by the enthusiasm of my friend to get me on with Delta ASAP. I'm 100% all about QOL and was considering pursuing chief instructor for a flight school, but if there's going to be a lot of movement in the majors in the next 10 years, that means we could all have pretty good QOL if we get on early.
I'm willing to sacrifice a little QOL now (but not too much) to get more later.
Freight is defiitely something to consider if I can man up for that lifestyle for a little while, thanks for the input.
Mattio
Well-Known Member
While it appears that there is going to be significant hiring on the horizon, I think it's a little early in the cycle to be calling early upgrades.
That being said, dumb luck and mediocrity got me a job at a carrier that was a no-where with 4+ year upgrades in '98 to the mighty J31. That definitely wasn't the place to be, however history proved otherwise.
There are different paths to get where you want, and one needs a rational reflection in this rather than overextended optimism.
The reality is that if you want turbine PIC, go do single pilot 135. The OP seems to have the minimums, he's already been to the 121 show and pulled the plug even though tprops are the next big thing
If you want to fly 121, go fly 121, but don't expect a quick upgrade. If it happens, great! If not, don't be disappointed. For any records of feelings of being stuck as a FO, or getting an upgrade out of seniority sequence, just look back at the last two years of postings. Sure, there are going to be attrition based upgrades, and that may wax and wane dependent on hiring cycles. Unlike the last decade, the combination of high attrition and high growth isn't very feasible. There might be one or two airlines out there that really grow, but it's not going to be an industry-wide phenomenon as it was with the RJ. If anything, there will be a fleet-exchange going on, turning in 90's era RJs for the Next-Gen tprops (of 80's lineage - go figure).
If you want Turbine PIC, go fly 135, but don't expect the CBA and workrules of most 121 carriers. Expect to be on a short leash with the company, then work your way back up the ladder.
I guess it's official: the career ladder of the pre-2000 craziness is back in place.
Everyone back in line....
Good luck
Thanks for all the input, man
I'm going to take a break from leaving voicemails for recruiters that will probably never be answered for a bit and talk about the "fast upgrade".
This might be long and rambling, but here goes.
Beware.
Speaking with one recruiter of a major airline he's had a lot of difficulties with new hires that were, I hate to say, "victims" of the fast upgrade.
Primarily because you need some time to stew in the right seat. Not the proverbial "pay your dues" but just sitting there, learning to make decisions, flying with great captains you want to one day emulate and also flying with rotten captains and learning the elements that make him/her a rotten captain and vowing never to become that person.
The effect of low time FO's upgrading to captain fast as "trickled up" to the majors. This person that I talked to said that the environment of just getting a warm body in the right seat and having captains "train" him, post-IOE actually was more or less too many captains did everything and too many FO's were content to just handle the radios and do the occasional "yeah, that!' shout-out.
So when an FO from that environment upgrades quickly, he didn't "bake" enough in the right seat to realize that being in command of an airliner is a lot more than checklists and calls to dispatch about what to do about the weather.
Decision-making and leadership are more important skills to develop over and above learning how to land smooth, not botch an approach and making the high-speed turnoff. Those two elements, decision-making and leadership are skills you learn by engaging in the craft, just not by getting in the seat, learning how to "play chameleon" with various captains and passing your type ride when it's your chance to upgrade.
I had a 45 minute discussion with a major airline pilot recruiter about this topic and believe it or not, it's a consistent issue with a lot of airlines I've been talking to over the past few months.
Too many guys upgraded too fast, didn't learn the leadership and interpersonal skills when they were first officer. Any bad habits, lack of leadership or attitude issues that could have gotten rectified by a seasoned captain were set in stone when they added the fourth stripe when their time came to upgrade.
Then that person passes the numbers game, gets an interview, gets hired and next thing he knows, there are simulator instructors asking HR "So, this guy sits there in the sim expecting the captain to do everything, are we still looking for leadership skills? Give me something to work with."
Then extraordinary amounts of time spent on IOE. IOE should be a couple of trips to bring together line operations with what you learned in the box, not months and months of tutelage, retraining, attitude corrections, et al.
This is a bigger issue than a lot of us are willing to admit.
This might be long and rambling, but here goes.
Beware.
Speaking with one recruiter of a major airline he's had a lot of difficulties with new hires that were, I hate to say, "victims" of the fast upgrade.
Primarily because you need some time to stew in the right seat. Not the proverbial "pay your dues" but just sitting there, learning to make decisions, flying with great captains you want to one day emulate and also flying with rotten captains and learning the elements that make him/her a rotten captain and vowing never to become that person.
The effect of low time FO's upgrading to captain fast as "trickled up" to the majors. This person that I talked to said that the environment of just getting a warm body in the right seat and having captains "train" him, post-IOE actually was more or less too many captains did everything and too many FO's were content to just handle the radios and do the occasional "yeah, that!' shout-out.
So when an FO from that environment upgrades quickly, he didn't "bake" enough in the right seat to realize that being in command of an airliner is a lot more than checklists and calls to dispatch about what to do about the weather.
Decision-making and leadership are more important skills to develop over and above learning how to land smooth, not botch an approach and making the high-speed turnoff. Those two elements, decision-making and leadership are skills you learn by engaging in the craft, just not by getting in the seat, learning how to "play chameleon" with various captains and passing your type ride when it's your chance to upgrade.
I had a 45 minute discussion with a major airline pilot recruiter about this topic and believe it or not, it's a consistent issue with a lot of airlines I've been talking to over the past few months.
Too many guys upgraded too fast, didn't learn the leadership and interpersonal skills when they were first officer. Any bad habits, lack of leadership or attitude issues that could have gotten rectified by a seasoned captain were set in stone when they added the fourth stripe when their time came to upgrade.
Then that person passes the numbers game, gets an interview, gets hired and next thing he knows, there are simulator instructors asking HR "So, this guy sits there in the sim expecting the captain to do everything, are we still looking for leadership skills? Give me something to work with."
Then extraordinary amounts of time spent on IOE. IOE should be a couple of trips to bring together line operations with what you learned in the box, not months and months of tutelage, retraining, attitude corrections, et al.
This is a bigger issue than a lot of us are willing to admit.
C150J
Well-Known Member
I 100% agree with everything you said up to this point. In my very limited experience in the schoolhouse, I think the length of IOE should be tailored to each individual student. It's one thing to train a former 121 guy how Delta Ramp/Ops works versus his US Airways Express carrier, but a completely different animal when you're bringing a single-pilot 135 pilot into the mix. Although probably more instrument-proficient than most, he is going to need more tutelage when it comes to customer service issues, long onboard delays, negotiating TECs to escape a TS-ridden Bravo, etc.
One of the biggest problems we had in 2007 was spitting 1,000-hour CFIs out with exactly 25 hours of IOE. Those guys needed more time to cook (or more time to prove that they didn't belong). Most continued developing, but some just stagnated at a level that won't necessarily be detected by an annual line check in good weather.
I'm pretty sure that's what you meant by "a couple trips," but just wanted to share!
Mattio -
I really applaud your ambition, but viewing TPIC as a box to check isn't the healthiest outlook. You're going to be up against guys with time in training departments, strategic committees, and a plethora of other extracurriculars that make employers like Delta drool... not to mention the fact that each one of them has internal references as well. Definitely, DEFINITELY not trying to discourage you one bit, as we've all been in your shoes at one point. Just remember that slowing down and actually working in the trenches will afford you more opportunities than doing the left seat dance to a point where you're short-timing employers.
J.
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
So my slight input on this... As upgrades are always a topic of discussion.... During the last 3 years that I have been at my regional things have been entertaning to say the least. During that time the age 65 got passed, the recession hit, I had a 6 month vacation (unpaid) given to me, and thus have been on reserve for well over 2.5 years. With working on reserve at a regional with what I would consider sub standard work rules for the reserve system, it has at the least left me very grateful in a few regards..... I dont know how this will be looked on by some later but here are a few things I am thankful for over those 2.5 years...
As a farily low time pilot when hired (not quite 1000TT) I had a lot to learn still. I felt very comfortable with flying the plane and decision making, but quickly learned I know not as much as I thought..... Although with being on reserve I do not fly as much as a line holder, and may not have as many hours as those who started with less, I feel as if my time at my company has been more valuable for myself then others who now have more time due to holding lines... I work for a company in which you typically fly with the same person for a month. Depending where you are on a seniority list, it is not uncommon to fly with a person for many months in a year. During my time on reserve I may not fly as many HOURS and have the "experience" based on hours I feel my time has been more valuable to me.
During that time I have flown with many captains. I have flown with all top 10 pilots at my company along with the bottom 10..... And many inbetween. I have had days where I have had 6 legs, and on each turn I see a new Captain..... By doing such I have learned how to adapt quickly, yet being very cautious with the new person I am flying with just incase there is something different that may come up (personalities, lack of standarization, bad day of flying etc etc). In addition the company I fly with takes us in and out of CRJ2/700's and there are days I switch between those daily as well (something a lineholder would not do). Many repo flights, mx flights, and flight check flights as well have all been great learning events while here. Then you add on the 14 hours of being on call for reserve, 10 hours of hot reserve at the airport I seem to see 2-3 times a week, and poor pay (yes I knew about getting into the game) it has made me realize that a next step will have to be better based on work rules while not holding a line if nothing else...
Perhaps I wont have the most TT at a next interview, but I am more then willing to put in dues at the next move regardless of holding a line or not..... I feel as if the near 3 years of being on reserve have probably made me a better pilot, and more appreciative of better work rules at a major and able to deal with a long time on reserve. When my upgrade eventually happens (at my regional) it will happen. There is nothing I can do to make it happen quicker. The only thing I am hoping is that by the time I am ready to upgrade I have been able to fly with as many peeople as I can, see as many situations as I can see, and experience as many weird days as possible. Because when that newbie FO is looking you in the eyes to make the final call I want to be damn sure I am capable of making not only the proper decision but the correct ones.... Things I think come with putting in your dues and thus time in the right seat.... Perhaps I am crazy, but I am now more thankful for how things worked out over the past couple years.... At the time I started I was looking at about a year upgrade..... Oh that could have been entertaining to say the least....
As a farily low time pilot when hired (not quite 1000TT) I had a lot to learn still. I felt very comfortable with flying the plane and decision making, but quickly learned I know not as much as I thought..... Although with being on reserve I do not fly as much as a line holder, and may not have as many hours as those who started with less, I feel as if my time at my company has been more valuable for myself then others who now have more time due to holding lines... I work for a company in which you typically fly with the same person for a month. Depending where you are on a seniority list, it is not uncommon to fly with a person for many months in a year. During my time on reserve I may not fly as many HOURS and have the "experience" based on hours I feel my time has been more valuable to me.
During that time I have flown with many captains. I have flown with all top 10 pilots at my company along with the bottom 10..... And many inbetween. I have had days where I have had 6 legs, and on each turn I see a new Captain..... By doing such I have learned how to adapt quickly, yet being very cautious with the new person I am flying with just incase there is something different that may come up (personalities, lack of standarization, bad day of flying etc etc). In addition the company I fly with takes us in and out of CRJ2/700's and there are days I switch between those daily as well (something a lineholder would not do). Many repo flights, mx flights, and flight check flights as well have all been great learning events while here. Then you add on the 14 hours of being on call for reserve, 10 hours of hot reserve at the airport I seem to see 2-3 times a week, and poor pay (yes I knew about getting into the game) it has made me realize that a next step will have to be better based on work rules while not holding a line if nothing else...
Perhaps I wont have the most TT at a next interview, but I am more then willing to put in dues at the next move regardless of holding a line or not..... I feel as if the near 3 years of being on reserve have probably made me a better pilot, and more appreciative of better work rules at a major and able to deal with a long time on reserve. When my upgrade eventually happens (at my regional) it will happen. There is nothing I can do to make it happen quicker. The only thing I am hoping is that by the time I am ready to upgrade I have been able to fly with as many peeople as I can, see as many situations as I can see, and experience as many weird days as possible. Because when that newbie FO is looking you in the eyes to make the final call I want to be damn sure I am capable of making not only the proper decision but the correct ones.... Things I think come with putting in your dues and thus time in the right seat.... Perhaps I am crazy, but I am now more thankful for how things worked out over the past couple years.... At the time I started I was looking at about a year upgrade.....
Oh that could have been entertaining to say the least....
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
I love the rush to upgrade...too damn funny.
Upgrade and Delta will e banging on your door for your services...chase that dream!
lol
Upgrade and Delta will e banging on your door for your services...chase that dream!
lol
mrivc211
Well-Known Member
Do you know what avg hours to get hired at a regional were in 2003? No less than 3500tt with 1000+turbine.
mrivc211
Well-Known Member
You mean 96 hours of IOE isn't normal?
Good lord no.
Passengers should at least have two situationally-engaged pilots rather than dual given on a cross-country!
ClearedForOption
Displaced... again.
Attachments
saxman
Well-Known Member
Mattio
Well-Known Member
Yea, I'm aware of that. I'm just saying that you're going to have a tough time convincing CFI with inconsistent pay and no other regional opportunities with major airline aspirations not to take the opportunity at a regional that will hire him. It can be done, they just need to hear all the horror stories and sometimes the horror stories don't get to them in time.
Mattio
Well-Known Member
Thanks for all the input, guys. This question was supposed to be simply something to throw against the wall and get some feedback from the peanut gallery.
It definitely sends chills up my spine to think about working at a regional that's going to treat me like crap so I can get that quick upgrade or has questionable operations. I honestly don't think I'm capable of that, as indicated by my decision to leave Colgan, because that certainly was a factor. I just couldn't do it and sometimes wish I could've.
I think my focus is going to be on working a job that I enjoy and fits with my life and trying to learn as much as possible while doing it even if it means it'll take me longer to get to the holy land, it's my only option.
It definitely sends chills up my spine to think about working at a regional that's going to treat me like crap so I can get that quick upgrade or has questionable operations. I honestly don't think I'm capable of that, as indicated by my decision to leave Colgan, because that certainly was a factor. I just couldn't do it and sometimes wish I could've.
I think my focus is going to be on working a job that I enjoy and fits with my life and trying to learn as much as possible while doing it even if it means it'll take me longer to get to the holy land, it's my only option.
