Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the State

[mshunter]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

Now you absolutely know that is not true. ALL CFI's that collect less than $2500 from a student are EXEMPT from the California regulation.

That would include the retired guy that only does flight reviews for this friends. I'll be happy to look up the law and find the section that provides this exemption if you folks can't find it.

Joe

So the independant CFI's who specalize in, say Cessna 400 stuff (a very dear friend of mine, who makes good money training people in advanced avionics platforms, usually $2500+ per student http://aviationinstruction.biz/index.html), has to pay this. Do you get it yet?

Or lets say you take a guy from PVT. to CMEL as an independant instructor, and never collect a dime upfront. As a contract instructor. I worked at a place that was like that. So I'd have to pay the fee. That would have put me in my truck for a few months for my home. Do you still not get it?

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

So the independant CFI's who specalize in, say Cessna 400 stuff (a very dear friend of mine, who makes good money training people in advanced avionics platforms, usually $2500 per student http://aviationinstruction.biz/index.html), has to pay this. Do you get it yet?

Why would a non-primary student need to spend more than $2500 to train on a special platform?

10 hours of flying at $250 an hour? Can you say.... over priced? 100 hours of flying at $25 an hour... what on earth do I need 100 hours in a glass cockpit for if I have already demonstrated private pilot proficiency in a steam-gauge cockpit?

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

So the independant CFI's who specalize in, say Cessna 400 stuff (a very dear friend of mine, who makes good money training people in advanced avionics platforms, usually $2500 per student http://aviationinstruction.biz/index.html), has to pay this. Do you get it yet?

If your very dear friend would drop his price to $2499 then he would be exempt.

The key here is that he can not collect over $2500 per student. The State of California did not put a time limit on the collection of the $2500 so as it stands right now, it is during a student's lifetime.

If he needs the extra dollar then he would need to be licensed and comply with the California law.

Joe

 

[OldTownPilot]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

Why would a non-primary student need to spend more than $2500 to train on a special platform?

10 hours of flying at $250 an hour? Can you say.... over priced? 100 hours of flying at $25 an hour... what on earth do I need 100 hours in a glass cockpit for if I have already demonstrated private pilot proficiency in a steam-gauge cockpit?

A full IFR checkout in a Cirrus is 10 hours. Good luck finding a SR-22 and instructor for less than that.

 

[mshunter]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

Why would a non-primary student need to spend more than $2500 to train on a special platform?

10 hours of flying at $250 an hour? Can you say.... over priced? 100 hours of flying at $25 an hour... what on earth do I need 100 hours in a glass cockpit for if I have already demonstrated private pilot proficiency in a steam-gauge cockpit?

Because when you have the money to buy a Corvallis, you have the money to pay a CFII who has hundreds of hours of experince in your airplane to get you your Inst. rating, and then train your wife, and then your friends, because some people are willing to pay a premium for a superior product.

Kinda like why fly first class on United when you can charter a Gulfstream.

If your very dear friend would drop his price to $2499 then he would be exempt.

The key here is that he can not collect over $2500 per student. The State of California did not put a time limit on the collection of the $2500 so as it stands right now, it is during a student's lifetime.

If he needs the extra dollar then he would need to be licensed and comply with the California law.

Joe

So now he has to make less money because of a law that was inacted to protect people from the "Big Bad wolf" when in fact he was just a "little red riding hood" on his way to grandmother's house?

I guess you just don't get it. Still, what about the contract instructors who take someone from PPL to even Inst. rating? I collected more than $2500 from one student doing that when I was instructing. And NOT A DIME WAS UPFRONT!

And he doesn't charge a flat fee. he charges by the hour. So whats he supposed to do? At $2499 dollars, whether they are proficient or not just stop training?

 

[cmill]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

A full IFR checkout in a Cirrus is 10 hours. Good luck finding a SR-22 and instructor for less than that.

cirrus instructors charge 250/hr?

and 10 hours for an ifr check out? wtf?

 

[OldTownPilot]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

Oh, and AZ did not declare part 61 schools as "hobby schools". JetU sucks propaganda declared them as "hobby schools".

How hard is it to not put huge amount of cash up front for any services? I don't do it for car repair, home renovations, or anything else, why the heck do it for flight training?

It obvious someone here has an agenda to push with (potential) financial gain. He's got to be pushing the spamming the site/ free advertising provisions in the user agreement.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

cirrus instructors charge 250/hr?

and 10 hours for an ifr check out? wtf?

rental + instructor > 250/hr.

yeah, the officially recognized training that the Cirrus training center and the CSIPs have for a (IFR) full glass transition is 10 hours (say from a steam C182 to a SR22). Of course that is pretty much recognized everywhere, and you can take that training to any CTC and rent.

 

[mshunter]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

I'm not against regulation for some of these schools. But I am against the regulation the way it is written. If you collect money upfront, you should be subject to this regulation. If you don't collect the money up front, you are incapible of inflicting the kind of harm this regulation is desgined to protect you from, so you should be exempt. Simple as that.

 

[sdfcvoh]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

Even though I (and dozens more) were ripped off by a flight school called National Pilot Academy, I've got an issue with the tone used by the OP in this thread. Total hogwash in my opinion.

Here is the real text from AvWeb. "Arizona education officials have apparently decided against following California in imposing potentially onerous financial and regulatory requirements on Part 61 flight schools. The Arizona State Board for Private Postsecondary Education unanimously rejected a proposal to consider Part 61 flight schools as "vocational" programs."

All I see is a knee-jerk reaction from a group that (and I quote) "...Loosely represents students who have collectively lost tens of millions of dollars to corrupt or incompetent flight schools."

Lets say I'm a small part 61 school (mom/pop) struggling to make ends meet. I charge a fair price for rental and instruction, and try to pay the bills, my instructors, insurance, and NOW.... comes along regulation saying that I have to pay extra fees in order to be called "vocational." Screw that.

More quotes. "Doing so would have made the generally smaller and less federally regulated schools subject to financial performance regulations and annual fees aimed at least partly at ensuring students would be protected if the school suddenly ceased operations. Aviation groups and flight instructor organizations spoke against the proposal at a meeting in Phoenix last week, saying the new rules might force otherwise upstanding and successful flight schools out of business."

Where, pray tell, does this even remotely become, "Arizona has now officially declared all non part 141 flight schools to be "Hobby Schools" and not for the professional career pilot. So if you are going to be a professional career pilot, Arizona is not the place for you to train."

Please instill your wisdom upon me...:dunno:

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

Oh, and AZ did not declare part 61 schools as "hobby schools"

Oh yes they did.

Those were the exact words that the Arizona State Board For Private Post Secondary Education used during that hearing. They also went on to say that these hobby schools were not for the professional pilot and therefore were not private vocational schools.

Private Vocational Programs are defined in Arizona as follows:

"Private Vocational Program means an instructional program which includes a course or group of courses for which a student does not earn a degree and which is designed to provide or is advertised as providing a student with sufficient skills for entry into a paid occupation"

The Board determined that non 141 schools are not a private vocational program and are not designed for the professional pilot and are not designed to provide a student with sufficient skills for entry into a paid job as a pilot.

Joe

 

[dvtpilot]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

Maybe I'm missing something here, but doesn't this just save the students money by allowing them to continue at a pt 61 school, which doesn't have the fees/regulation, and get the same certificates?

The FAA doesn't care what type of school you went to, neither does an airline/135 outfit. Until its required that to work at Regional "A", or Freight Company "B"...the whole thing seems like a pointless debate.

Again, unless I'm missing something here.

 

[mshunter]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

The Board determined that non 141 schools are not a private vocational program and are not designed for the professional pilot and are not designed to provide a student with sufficient skills for entry into a paid job as a pilot.

Joe

OH NOEZ! There are soo many people currently flying that earned their ratings in AZ that were not at pt141 schools who are considered professionals! SOME ONE TELL THE FAA IMMIEDIATLY! My boss is gonna freak out when he finds out I did my training at a pt61 school in AZ. I'm mo loose ma job!

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

Even though I (and dozens more) were ripped off by a flight school called National Pilot Academy, I've got an issue with the tone used by the OP in this thread.

Do tell us how you were ripped off by National Pilot Academy.

Did you get a refund?

Did any of the students get a refund?

When did this happen?

Where was National Pilot Academy located?

How many students were ripped off?

How much did you lose?

Did anyone care that you lost your money?

Did anyone help you?

What did you do to stop this same rip off from happening in the future to yourself or others?

Joe

 

[derg]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

I read the article and didn't think the reclassification was ominous.

It seems that Arizona isn't going to hold part 61 flight schools to the same level of regulatory oversite that they would a carpenters guild or dental assistant school.

 

[sdfcvoh]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

I ended up better off than most, but still lost over $10k. Many (read 20+) ended up much worse. They closed the doors (Utah, Arizona, Florida, Nevada) then disappeared behind the legal triplicate. Lawyers filed for bankruptcy. Creditors came calling. Do you think students got their money back?

Much worse, we found out later that the corporate office (Cedar City, UT) had been told to cease and desist by the government in Utah almost a year before many of us even started. They were collecting fees without a bond. Many of us tried for over a year to make headway and ended up being blocked from every direction. A few students were awarded settlements by the courts in private cases... only to be unable to ever collect.

Did you get a refund?
:rotfl:
Did any of the students get a refund?
:rotfl:
When did this happen?
2008

Where was National Pilot Academy located?
Utah, Arizona, Nevada, Florida

How many students were ripped off?
at least 20

Did anyone care that you lost your money?
Got an article in the AZ Star and the SLC Tribune to name a few. Those didn't put food on the table or pay for lost student loan monies.

Did anyone help you?
We had some people on our side, but by this time the owners were hiding behind corporate attorneys in their quaint little valley.

What did you do to stop this same rip off from happening in the future to yourself or others?
Apparently nothing tried will never be enough; when the government can tell a flight school to stop doing what they are doing, and they still continue with the same practice?

 

[RICHARD5]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

And how many pilots were trained and got jobs before 141 existed?

Alex, What is every one?

I'm not sure I understand your point.

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

OH NOEZ! There are soo many people currently flying that earned their ratings in AZ that were not at pt141 schools who are considered professionals! SOME ONE TELL THE FAA IMMIEDIATLY! My boss is gonna freak out when he finds out I did my training at a pt61 school in AZ. I'm mo loose ma job!

Sucks doesn't it?

As someone that also earned his ratings at a Part 61 school in Arizona this does concern me. Maybe we shouldn't tell anyone.

Joe

 

[RICHARD5]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

Actually most of the student tuition money lost was in Part 61 programs. I recall 34 million being lost in Arizona over the past 4 years and of that 12 million was from part 141 and 22 million from part 61.

It is mostly a part 61 problem.

Joe

I am not in a position to argue those numbers. Actually, I don't have a dog in this fight. All I know is what I've read RE: TAB, GulfStream, Silver State, American Aviation at LVK and MER, etc. And when SS went down, I had my plane based at an aprt they were using. As much as that's worth, I saw it first hand ("it" being myriad of students being bilked).

Compare that to the various long-lived mom & pop Pt 61s I've known. My experience with Pt 61 is you get everything and more what you pay for.

I have only mostly my anecdotal experience rather than empirical review to rely upon. In any case, it's a sad state of affairs for the industry. PT Barnum is still right.

The question is reduced to: Is a blanket consumer protection wrought by govt the best, right, correct answer? Do the bad truly spoil it for every school operator?

 

[RICHARD5]

Re: Arizona Flight Schools Declared Hobby Schools by the Sta

Anyone about to lose their job be sure to inform your employer that I am ready, willing, and able to assume the position.