Comair "big" announcement

Trip7 said:
How much more we could have grown? If SKW had not taken over ASA we would have been in the same boat as Comair. Period. You guys at XJT are getting an excellent opportunity to add some long term job stability. XJT has A LOT more to lose than SKW or ASA. Numbers don't lie.100 mil cash left and 20 mail loss last quarter?

I don't know why you're going way off into CAL/UAL neg. Has nothing really to do with this transaction.

Logistical it can not happen. Do you think that SKW pilots will just sit there happily and yet the union come in? Look atbit this way, what would we do if we were forced out of union representation? What if JA said drop the union and then you can have your one list. Is that 'negotiatable'?

It's all a mute point anyway. Your MEC clearly sees the light and what's best for XJT. You opinion is clearly in the minority.
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Mute point:
mute-logo1.gif



Moot point:
Idioms & Phrases
moot point
A debatable question, an issue open to argument; also, an irrelevant question, a matter of no importance. For example, Whether Shakespeare actually wrote the poem remains a moot point among critics , or It's a moot point whether the chicken or the egg came first . This term originated in British law where it described a point for discussion in a moot , or assembly, of law students. By the early 1700s it was being used more loosely in the present sense.
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Just to clear up an confusion before we venture further down the road with that first word.


By the way, trip... it's good to think of the regionals as a career for bargaining purposes, however, I think it's basically stopping short of your full potential as a pilot to want to stay at a regional.
 
Trip7 said:
This is a completely ridiculous statement. You truly believe XJT and ASA are better off separate than as one?
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Quit clowning around.

You just don't get it, do you? Who
cares whether YOU think there will be whipsaw...that doesn't mean their won't be.

You are too junior and too much of a baby in the airlines (and so am I) to be talking the way you do. Here's some advice- your union and your MEC will decide the best path. Just go fly your jet on the weekends.
 
aevfo said:
I guess your unofficial source is flightinfo. Interestingly if you look at your posts, you basically echo what has previously been posted at FI.
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Of course merging all three lists would be best. But you guys(thank goodness you're all in the minority) are still stuck in dream world focusing on something that is an IMPOSSIBILITY. The 2nd best option clearly is the merger of 2 strong union airlines with protections. But that's not good enough. Some XJTers suggest they'll rather go bankrupt on their own then merge with only ASA. Hard to argue against that kind of logic. It's a great thing XJT union leaders are more level headed.
 
SmitteyB said:
God you're a clown.

You just don't get it, do you? Who cares whether YOU think there will be whipsaw doesn't mean their won't be.

You are too junior and too much of a baby in the airlines (and so am I) to be talking the way you do. Here's some advice- your union and your MEC will decide the best path. Just go fly your jet on the weekends.
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Whatever. That's why my views are exactly what the majority of pilots and union leaders are thinking. And I will enjoy flying my jet on the weekends thank-you.
 
cencal83406 said:
Mute point:
mute-logo1.gif



Moot point:



Just to clear up an confusion before we venture further down the road with that first word.


By the way, trip... it's good to think of the regionals as a career for bargaining purposes, however, I think it's basically stopping short of your full potential as a pilot to want to stay at a regional.
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Good catch. Typing too fast on the incredible.
 
Trip7 said:
Of course merging all three lists would be best. But you guys(thank goodness you're all in the minority) are still stuck in dream world focusing on something that is an IMPOSSIBILITY. The 2nd best option clearly is the merger of 2 strong union airlines with protections. But that's not good enough. Some XJTers suggest they'll rather go bankrupt on their own then merge with only ASA. Hard to argue against that kind of logic. It's a great thing XJT union leaders are more level headed.
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I would not make the assumption that Captain Bob is in the minority at Xjet. At this juncture, he probably holds the majority opinion.
 
Trip7 said:
You guys at XJT are getting an excellent opportunity to add some long term job stability.
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You are correct. Our scope provides that and we are trying to allow you the same protections.

Trip7 said:
Numbers don't lie.100 mil cash left and 20 mail loss last quarter?
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We have been improving the bottom line and we haven't seen $20mil losses in a few quarters. This is simply doomspeak on your part and SKYW inc. I understand it... it's what happens in negotiations. If you don't do what Mgmt. wants... the the company will fold, lose more business, furlough more pilots, etc.

Trip7 said:
I don't know why you're going way off into CAL/UAL neg. Has nothing really to do with this transaction.
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If you really can't see how this will potentially affect all of us in several years time... then I don't know what to say.

Trip7 said:
It's all a mute point anyway. Your MEC clearly sees the light and what's best for XJT. You opinion is clearly in the minority.
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Covering the online aviation chat forums as a source of information into closed session MEC meetings is not really a way to gain the facts. We've all done it I suppose... but unless you were there, and I personally know you weren't... then you have no idea what transpired or what the current direction of our MEC is.

Keeping up with the pulse in the our crew room, on our flight decks, and on our internal company forums is the way to find out if I'm in the "minority". For the record... based on that information... talking with real people... It appears that I am not in the minority.

Trip... we don't hate you guys and I think that you and the other ASA pilots know that. We don't hate the SkyWesties either. We do take some offense to some of your pilot's stance that we simply can't survive without you though.

We've got a good group of pilots and we've survived the precipice of striking in '04, the loss of 25% of our CPA in '06, the loss of our coveted west coast bases in '08, the furlough of 340 of our fellow pilots, the economic downturns and concessions of recent time, and now we are facing this.

We've been beat up and bruised in battle all the while still enjoying the benefits of a great contract that was fought for just as hard as we are fighting now.

If it doesn't work out... so be it. You'll be right and I'll be wrong. I'll congratulate you now if that's the case. But... I'm asking you to simply take a moment and see things from our perspective.

We've survived all those things in the past... and as a result, we feel we can still survive without this deal. Stating that you think we will be out of business in a few years if we don't play ball with SKYW is no different than me stating I think that we will be successful. We are simply stating opinions from our relative perspectives. Of course wee both know what they say about opinions.... right. ;)

As pilots... it's not our job to worry about the "logistics" of how a company complies with our negotiated contract. SKYW has entered into this deal knowing full well what is in our contract and is choosing to ignore it in the hopes that we cave. That is not a company that we want to work for, nor would I think it would be one any pilot would want to work for.

We gave up a lot of money and QOL provisions in contract '04 to gain that scope. Asking a battle hardened pilot group to now give up more in the interest of just "going along with the process" isn't something that will come easily. Please understand that.

We can agree to disagree from here on out... and I'm OK with that. I only ask that you please don't come off as enthusiastic when you feel your new potential co-workers will be railroaded into a position that they've fought for years to not ever be in.

Thanks Trip,

I've never wrote this before since I'm not usually an ALPA chest thumper... but... here goes:

In unity,

Bob
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Atkin will be making tons of money from his new combined ASA/XJT operation, and the SkyWest pilots will see that SkyWest Inc. works just fine with a union operation of twice as many pilots. They will quickly start to see the benefits of representation and realize that the management rhetoric of so many years against unions has been nothing but bunk. At that point, a successful ALPA drive at SkyWest would be far more likely, and then Atkin loses his benefit of keeping them separate and will almost certainly merge the lists on his own accord.
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Or JA can move all the money over to Skywest, promise them the moon, give out a few "concessions" during the union push, watch it fail and go back to business as usual. It's in the management playbook, it's worked well in the past, and it worked REALLY well at 9E and 9L. Took all the money 9E made, bought Colgan and more Q400s, 9E pilots still get the "we don't have money for that" in contract negotiations and it took TWO union drives to get ALPA in at Colgan, even with them being abused. Poor out enough Kool-Aid at Skywest, and you might be looking at another 2 or 3 union drives even WITH the new voting rules. I just have little faith in pilot groups working for the greater good vs "the what gets me a better schedule and more money" anymore.

trip7 said:
Good catch. Typing too fast on the incredible.
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Most people just call it a cel phne. Sorry. Typing too fast on the Dell desktop, I guess.
 
Before I say this I want to once again point out that I've met trip7 in person and that he's a really good guy. It absolutely baffles me that he doesn't mind coming across the way he does on the Internet.

That being said he really does represent the minority here at ASA and I really don't like the way he makes the rest of our pilot group look with his broad statements and assumptions about how the rest of us feel.

While there are a few people (mostly people who don't have plans or wishes to move on) who want to fly the biggest planes for the biggest regional without much change in our QOL. But there are a lot of us who are much more concerned about quality of life and pay than being able to make bombastic claims about how "super" our regional is and how we just got back from doing "eight-oh" in our shiney new -900.

I don't want this to be my career airline, but if it becomes my final destination, I want it to be a place with the best job security, QOL, and compensation we can get. Simply rolling over because management wants it that way is not the way to accomplish this.

Most people aren't looking at this the way trip7 is. We don't view ourselves as the golden lifeboat for xjet. We see it how it is. Management decided to do this and were both stuck in this together. And there is not another pilot group we'd rather be going through this with than the Xjet pilots. The few who I know, and the few I've run into here at IAD seem to be a true group of professionals who we are looking forward to working with.

Again, nothing personal against trip7. Would still have a couple beers with the guy any day. You do have to admire his positive attitude for someone who spent considerable amount of time as the plug. The rest of us who spent some extra time at the ass end of the seniority list because of furloughs don't view this place through the same rose colored glasses that he does. It was a furlough of convenience and as a result those of us on reserve had to work extra hard to make up for their change to a pinnacle like staffing model. As far as management goes, there are much worse places to be, but most of us certainly don't feel like doing them any favors any time soon.
 
Captain_Bob said:
You are correct. Our scope provides that and we are trying to allow you the same protections.

We have been improving the bottom line and we haven't seen $20mil losses in a few quarters. This is simply doomspeak on your part and SKYW inc. I understand it... it's what happens in negotiations. If you don't do what Mgmt. wants... the the company will fold, lose more business, furlough more pilots, etc.

If you really can't see how this will potentially affect all of us in several years time... then I don't know what to say.

Covering the online aviation chat forums as a source of information into closed session MEC meetings is not really a way to gain the facts. We've all done it I suppose... but unless you were there, and I personally know you weren't... then you have no idea what transpired or what the current direction of our MEC is.

Keeping up with the pulse in the our crew room, on our flight decks, and on our internal company forums is the way to find out if I'm in the "minority". For the record... based on that information... talking with real people... It appears that I am not in the minority.

Trip... we don't hate you guys and I think that you and the other ASA pilots know that. We don't hate the SkyWesties either. We do take some offense to some of your pilot's stance that we simply can't survive without you though.

We've got a good group of pilots and we've survived the precipice of striking in '04, the loss of 25% of our CPA in '06, the loss of our coveted west coast bases in '08, the furlough of 340 of our fellow pilots, the economic downturns and concessions of recent time, and now we are facing this.

We've been beat up and bruised in battle all the while still enjoying the benefits of a great contract that was fought for just as hard as we are fighting now.

If it doesn't work out... so be it. You'll be right and I'll be wrong. I'll congratulate you now if that's the case. But... I'm asking you to simply take a moment and see things from our perspective.

We've survived all those things in the past... and as a result, we feel we can still survive without this deal. Stating that you think we will be out of business in a few years if we don't play ball with SKYW is no different than me stating I think that we will be successful. We are simply stating opinions from our relative perspectives. Of course wee both know what they say about opinions.... right. ;)

As pilots... it's not our job to worry about the "logistics" of how a company complies with our negotiated contract. SKYW has entered into this deal knowing full well what is in our contract and is choosing to ignore it in the hopes that we cave. That is not a company that we want to work for, nor would I think it would be one any pilot would want to work for.

We gave up a lot of money and QOL provisions in contract '04 to gain that scope. Asking a battle hardened pilot group to now give up more in the interest of just "going along with the process" isn't something that will come easily. Please understand that.

We can agree to disagree from here on out... and I'm OK with that. I only ask that you please don't come off as enthusiastic when you feel your new potential co-workers will be railroaded into a position that they've fought for years to not ever be in.

Thanks Trip,

I've never wrote this before since I'm not usually an ALPA chest thumper... but... here goes:

In unity,

Bob
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Per the 2nd quarter earnings report XJT posted a loss of 18.6 mil. And that was on higher than expected revenue. I may be wrong, but I do not think XJT can make it past 3-yrs on their own. You may think that SKW is getting a sweet deal but most financial sites are saying XJT shareholders should consider themselves lucky they got 133 mil considering the losses XJT has been posting. Article was on bnet.com. I'm not trying to be mean or hurtful, Im trying to be real. The quicker we get outta fantasy land and start focusing on objectives that can be accomplished the better.

Which leads to a popular but eloquent ALPA phrase, in unity. Powerful words they are, and something we in this very transaction should abide by. Under no circumstance should we allow a merger of two powerful ALPA groups to fall through. Especially not over the fact we can't merge with a huge anti-union workforce. Merging all three lists under ALPA is the best case scenario on paper(labor unrest issues aside) but if that can not be then gentlemen we must not let the 2nd best case scenario fall by the wayside. If anything, can we not agree that a united XJT/ASA is better than nothing at all?

United we Stand, Divided we Fall
 
Trip7 said:
Per the 2nd quarter earnings report XJT posted a loss of 18.6 mil. And that was on higher than expected revenue. I may be wrong, but I do not think XJT can make it past 3-yrs on their own. You may think that SKW is getting a sweet deal but most financial sites are saying XJT shareholders should consider themselves lucky they got 133 mil considering the losses XJT has been posting. Article was on bnet.com. I'm not trying to be mean or hurtful, Im trying to be real. The quicker we get outta fantasy land and start focusing on objectives that can be accomplished the better.

Which leads to a popular but eloquent ALPA phrase, in unity. Powerful words they are, and something we in this very transaction should abide by. Under no circumstance should we allow a merger of two powerful ALPA groups to fall through. Especially not over the fact we can't merge with a huge anti-union workforce. Merging all three lists under ALPA is the best case scenario on paper(labor unrest issues aside) but if that can not be then gentlemen we must not let the 2nd best case scenario fall by the wayside. If anything, can we not agree that a united XJT/ASA is better than nothing at all?

United we Stand, Divided we Fall
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Exactly, which is why ExpressJet pilots are going to take a stand with United and Continental pilots over scope issues.

You can come along and do your share of the work, or you can ride on the coat tails of everybody else that's going to put it on the line to make this career worth something.
 
Trip7 said:
Skywest has a happy pilot group that is vehemently against a union.
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You really need to stop generalizing. Apathetic? Perhaps. Vehemently against a union? Nope. A lot of things have changed in the last few years, we are generally 'happy', however 'content with growing discontent' might be more accurate.

I suggest you stop commenting on matters you are not familiar with as fact.
 
bike21 said:
You really need to stop generalizing. Apathetic? Perhaps. Vehemently against a union? Nope. A lot of things have changed in the last few years, we are generally 'happy', however 'content with growing discontent' might be more accurate.

I suggest you stop commenting on matters you are not familiar with as fact.
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I let numbers speak for themselves. What was the result of the last elections over there?
 
Bob, I respect your passion on this issue, although I think I disagree with the conclusions you've come to. However, I'm curious what you think about something: in your opinion, what is the entire purpose of your holding company side letter? Is the requirement to merge seniority lists the purpose of the side letter, in and of itself, or is the purpose to prevent a whipsaw and to provide job security? That is really the question at hand, here. If the answer is the latter, then there may be other ways to achieve the same objective, while not risking a loss of the transaction that is probably better for everyone involved.

jtrain609 said:
Exactly, which is why ExpressJet pilots are going to take a stand with United and Continental pilots over scope issues.
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Do you think the CAL/UAL pilots are going to achieve 50-seat scope for the combined carrier? Answer honestly, now.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Bob, I respect your passion on this issue, although I think I disagree with the conclusions you've come to. However, I'm curious what you think about something: in your opinion, what is the entire purpose of your holding company side letter? Is the requirement to merge seniority lists the purpose of the side letter, in and of itself, or is the purpose to prevent a whipsaw and to provide job security? That is really the question at hand, here. If the answer is the latter, then there may be other ways to achieve the same objective, while not risking a loss of the transaction that is probably better for everyone involved.
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Do you think the CAL/UAL pilots are going to achieve 50-seat scope for the combined carrier? Answer honestly, now.
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Uh oh....

I'm in total agreement with both of your sentiments.
:blowkiss: :insane:
 
ATN_Pilot said:
In that case, let's place a bet. I've got 100 bucks that says it ends up at between 70-76 seat scope. Deal? :)
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Man I'd love to take your money, but that's a little rich for my student budget :)

How about we make the bet worth something; winner gets the pick the losers first shot at NJC. Before you agree to this, I want to remind that I'm not just a keyboard ninja on the internet, and instead a true to life SOB :)
 
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