Comair "big" announcement

I think he said something that he was being facetious in another communication!
 
H46Bubba said:
I'm done with prognosticating Comair's future.:dunno: It makes for good banter at work, but I'll just continue to show up for work and as long my badge gets me in the door, and I get paid every other week. Of course I'm looking for the closest emergency exit!;)
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I wish you guys nothing but the best.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
In a word, yes. I can't believe I'm saying this, but.........I agree with Trip7. I know, it sounds crazy, but this time he seems to be actually thinking things through instead of just carrying the usual management kool-aid. Atkin is looking at a very difficult situation. Either he accepts a three-way integration, forcing his non-union pilots into a union against their will, creating a massive morale problem that threatens his airline's performance, which also threatens his long-term capacity purchase agreements, or he backs out of the deal and loses the considerable synergies. With those options, I think he would be far more likely to go with option number two. The risks associated with the first option far outweigh the benefits of going forward with the transaction.

Now, does that mean that a three-way integration can never happen? Not at all. The SkyWest pilots will soon find themselves as the minority pilot group at SkyWest Inc., and they will no longer be the favored sons. Atkin will be making tons of money from his new combined ASA/XJT operation, and the SkyWest pilots will see that SkyWest Inc. works just fine with a union operation of twice as many pilots. They will quickly start to see the benefits of representation and realize that the management rhetoric of so many years against unions has been nothing but bunk. At that point, a successful ALPA drive at SkyWest would be far more likely, and then Atkin loses his benefit of keeping them separate and will almost certainly merge the lists on his own accord.

With that said, this is a decision that the XJT pilots need to make on their own. Weigh the pros and cons and make the right decision. Just do so with all of the facts in mind, including the risks. It might not be as easy a decision as you first think.



Based on what I know of the SkyWest/ASA operation, and based on past NMB rulings, I think it's unlikely that the pilots would be successful in a single carrier petition. There just isn't enough operational integration.
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Thank you! Someone on Jc gets where I coming from. And from what I hearing the XJT MEC is starting to lean this way too. ALPA Union leaders always seem to think and operate in an intelligent, level-headed and highly analytical manner. This is the type of leadership that is needed in critical moments of aviation history like this one.
 
Trip7 said:
Thank you! Someone on Jc gets where I coming from. And from what I hearing the XJT MEC is starting to lean this way too. ALPA Union leaders always seem to think and operate in an intelligent, level-headed and highly analytical manner. This is the type of leadership that is needed in critical moments of aviation history like this one.
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Most important events in aviation history according to trip7:

1)wright brothers
2)man goes to space
3)man lands on moon
4)ASA and XJT merge
 
FlyChicaga said:
All SkyWest needs to do is look at Republic. Three (four? five?) certificates, one seniority list.

We don't need to combine ASA and XJT, then fight for scope protections. XJT already has the scope protections. Why fight for something we already have?

Personally, I say one list or close the doors. If SkyWest wants to play hardball, fine. I'll choose integrity and not being a sellout over keeping this regional job. At some point, pilots need to say, "enough is enough." This is our chance. This is an opportunity for XJT, ASA and SkyWest pilots to say, "we aren't going to be pitted against one another."

Jerry Atkin is really shooting himself in the foot if he doesn't play ball with XJT. He's going to let his ego override his brain.
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You and Capt Bob are vastly under estimating the logistics of merging a non-union carrier with two union carriers. I believe the Republic case is comparing apples to oranges. Way different situation.

You will be sacrificing your career for absolutely nothing if you do as you say. The intent of your scope is prevent whipsaw. That protection will be granted by JA. CAL signed a 10 yr agreement with the new ASA, not Skywest. Our current flying and current aircraft will be protected, plus at least 15 additional planes. Once again, this is in contract with ASA, not SKW. The whipsaw you guys are so afraid of does not exist. The radicals here at ASA have been dooming and glooming for years that Acey will be strunk in favor of SKW. Meanwhile we have grown.

Once again, the three lists cannot be merged. Skywest has a happy pilot group that is vehemently against a union. XJT and ASA are heavily pro-union. This will cause labor strife that could possibly destroy the SKW Inc empire.

Oh, as far as whipsaw, you guys have ALREADY been whipsawed even with your ironclad scope clause. That contract that you signed with CAL that the employees had to take concessions for to avoid heavy losses, was negotiated by JA.

I'm telling you bro, us two against them is a whole lot better than you guys out there by yourselves with $100 mil cash. SKW will eventually unionize and merge. Like AtNpilot said, it will happen easier if they see the benefits of a strong unionized, 4500 strong pilot group, instead of attempting to force a union down their throat.
 
Great news. Word is unofficially out that the XJT MEC has decided to forgo their one list push and proceed with negotiating a transition agreement with whipsaw protection. Excellent, excellent news!
 
Trip7 said:
Great news. Word is unofficially out that the XJT MEC has decided to forgo their one list push and proceed with negotiating a transition agreement with whipsaw protection. Excellent, excellent news!
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Really not excellent news at all, including for your future in the long run.
 
Trip7 said:
Great news. Word is unofficially out that the XJT MEC has decided to forgo their one list push and proceed with negotiating a transition agreement with whipsaw protection. Excellent, excellent news!
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I don't remember seeing you in the MEC meeting...

Your information is blatantly false and what you are stating is a twisting of some information that came from the meeting regarding the existing issues on the table... not the "path" that is being taken.
 
Trip7 said:
The intent of your scope is prevent whipsaw. That protection will be granted by JA. CAL signed a 10 yr agreement with the new ASA, not Skywest. Our current flying and current aircraft will be protected, plus at least 15 additional planes. Once again, this is in contract with ASA, not SKW. The whipsaw you guys are so afraid of does not exist. The radicals here at ASA have been dooming and glooming for years that Acey will be strunk in favor of SKW. Meanwhile we have grown.
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Trip, How much more could you have grown if you had been free to bid on your own flying though? How about over the next 20 years?

Scope provisions are already in place to prevent the whipsaw so why do we need to re-negotiate further provisions? CAL pilots have one of the strongest scope clauses in the majors and they too are fighting to keep it in their current negotiations. In fact... they are taking it even further by trying to drop all "outsourced" flying over the next several years.

What do you think will happen if they succeed to start dwindling down their regional partners and both SKYW and the new ASA/XJT are on separate lists? Who will the "holding" company protect more... their own non-union pilots who they can dictate pay, scheduling rules, and QOL concessions too... or a strong union based alter-ego company?

What are your thoughts on CAL/UAL's current negotiations to keep CAL's scope? It would also mean a lot of logistical planning by the company. Why should they cave on their scope to protect their jobs just for the convenience of the company? They are trying to protect their jobs and ours when/if we get hired by them. This is very respectable IMO.

We are doing the same... and whether you care to believe it or not, we are trying to protect your job too. We aren't radicals... our negotiated scope isn't a "radical" idea... it's simply a provision to protect ourselves and those who we merge with.

Logistically, JA can make it happen. If you don't think that he is looking at dollar signs and control of the largest regional market share in the world then you may want to re-examine the situation.

Trip7 said:
Once again, the three lists cannot be merged. Skywest has a happy pilot group that is vehemently against a union... This will cause labor strife that could possibly destroy the SKW Inc empire...
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Trip7 said:
SKW will eventually unionize and merge.
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Which is it?
 
NC_BE300 said:
I'll 2nd this motion.

Bubba are you going to the DTW also?
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No staying here in the GO till they try to either get rid of me or I move on. Hopefully it's the later!:rolleyes: Doug's trying to help me get out of here, but Southernjets is not being too coopertative with all my applications for various jobs.:dunno: I think it's the Comair stigmata!:crazy:
 
And ASA hasn't really grown that much. And one could argue that without freedom going in the tank we would have shrunk. Before DL won the court battle we still had 6 planes looking for a home. We now have an extension on our dl contract for those planes but it's rather short term. The two extra 200s we picked up are because we have some reliability issues with our fleet up in IAD because those are the oldest planes we have. As I understand it those two planes didn't come with extra flying, but rather to serve as spares.
 
Trip7 said:
Great news. Word is unofficially out that the XJT MEC has decided to forgo their one list push and proceed with negotiating a transition agreement with whipsaw protection. Excellent, excellent news!
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I guess your unofficial source is flightinfo. Interestingly if you look at your posts, you basically echo what has previously been posted at FI.
 
Captain_Bob said:
Trip, How much more could you have grown if you had been free to bid on your own flying though? How about over the next 20 years?

Scope provisions are already in place to prevent the whipsaw so why do we need to re-negotiate further provisions? CAL pilots have one of the strongest scope clauses in the majors and they too are fighting to keep it in their current negotiations. In fact... they are taking it even further by trying to drop all "outsourced" flying over the next several years.

What do you think will happen if they succeed to start dwindling down their regional partners and both SKYW and the new ASA/XJT are on separate lists? Who will the "holding" company protect more... their own non-union pilots who they can dictate pay, scheduling rules, and QOL concessions too... or a strong union based alter-ego company?

What are your thoughts on CAL/UAL's current negotiations to keep CAL's scope? It would also mean a lot of logistical planning by the company. Why should they cave on their scope to protect their jobs just for the convenience of the company? They are trying to protect their jobs and ours when/if we get hired by them. This is very respectable IMO.

We are doing the same... and whether you care to believe it or not, we are trying to protect your job too. We aren't radicals... our negotiated scope isn't a "radical" idea... it's simply a provision to protect ourselves and those who we merge with.

Logistically, JA can make it happen. If you don't think that he is looking at dollar signs and control of the largest regional market share in the world then you may want to re-examine the situation.





Which is it?
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How much more we could have grown? If SKW had not taken over ASA we would have been in the same boat as Comair. Period. You guys at XJT are getting an excellent opportunity to add some long term job stability. XJT has A LOT more to lose than SKW or ASA. Numbers don't lie.100 mil cash left and 20 mail loss last quarter?

I don't know why you're going way off into CAL/UAL neg. Has nothing really to do with this transaction.

Logistical it can not happen. Do you think that SKW pilots will just sit there happily and yet the union come in? Look atbit this way, what would we do if we were forced out of union representation? What if JA said drop the union and then you can have your one list. Is that 'negotiatable'?

It's all a mute point anyway. Your MEC clearly sees the light and what's best for XJT. You opinion is clearly in the minority.
 
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