New Safety Bill effect on mil dudes...

mhcasey

mhcasey

Well-Known Member
I posted this in the big thread in general topics, but I think it's already been lost in the pages of arguments. Will the new safety bill require us to have 1500 hours prior to the airlines? I'm not even sure it will be an issue, but I'm a reservist and 1) may or may not be going TR a year out of B-course, and 2) may or may not actually want to go to the airlines at that point.

Have guys leaving single seat fighters needed to find ways to hit 1500 for ATP in the past anyway?
 
How many active military pilots have less than 1500TT after their full service comitment? I'm guessing very few.

The guard guys could be in a pickle if they were hoping to find an airline job as soon as they are done with training.
 
USMCmech said:
How many active military pilots have less than 1500TT after their full service comitment? I'm guessing very few.

The guard guys could be in a pickle if they were hoping to find an airline job as soon as they are done with training.
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I don't know how many hours the fighter guys get, but I always heard that due to short durations they didn't accumulate them very fast. Of course, my experience in the T-37 and T-6 was that I was building hours at the same or even a higher rate than in the KC-135... something to be said for 2-3 flights a day, every day.

But yeah, I think mostly it's the Reserve/Guard guys who will be affected most.
 
USMCmech said:
How many active military pilots have less than 1500TT after their full service comitment? I'm guessing very few.

The guard guys could be in a pickle if they were hoping to find an airline job as soon as they are done with training.
Click to expand...

fish314 said:
I don't know how many hours the fighter guys get, but I always heard that due to short durations they didn't accumulate them very fast. Of course, my experience in the T-37 and T-6 was that I was building hours at the same or even a higher rate than in the KC-135... something to be said for 2-3 flights a day, every day.

But yeah, I think mostly it's the Reserve/Guard guys who will be affected most.
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Here's the problem, at least for USAF guys: UAVs.

There are a number of guys heading to UAVs after their first or second flying tour. For fighter guys who are already not getting a ton of time as-is (save deployments, etc) this is a killer, as you well know that UAV time is completely and utterly worthless. For airlift/tanker guys (and correct me if I'm wrong Fish), those guys log alot of time, but mostly as co-pilot time (as well as total time- I think). And if those poor guys are sent to a UAV post-first or second assignment, they'll either go to the UAV with only copilot time if they haven't upgraded to AC, or go to a UAV with some AC time but maybe no IP or SEFE time.

Whats worse, is if a guy from either community gets a UAV, he NEEDS to stay in for another flying assignment, since if he gets out following UAVs, he's not current on anything flying-wise, and for many jobs THATS a killer.

This is one of the big downsides to UAVs and flying them.
 
USMCmech said:
How many active military pilots have less than 1500TT after their full service comitment? I'm guessing very few.

The guard guys could be in a pickle if they were hoping to find an airline job as soon as they are done with training.
Click to expand...

There certainly aren't as many hours going around for tacair guys as there used to be, but 1500 hours (not incuding tracom time) is not unusual for senior O-3/junior O-4's (about the time when MSR's expire these days).
 
As a fighter dude, I hit 1500 hours of military time (post UPT, so not counting any of my student time) a year before my commitment was up. This was one ops tour and one ALFA tour with an 8 year commitment.

So, with the current 10-year commitment in the USAF, even a fighter dude isn't going to have a problem meeting that number (unless, as MikeD said, his second tour is a non-flying tour).
 
MikeD said:
Here's the problem, at least for USAF guys: UAVs.

There are a number of guys heading to UAVs after their first or second flying tour. For fighter guys who are already not getting a ton of time as-is (save deployments, etc) this is a killer, as you well know that UAV time is completely and utterly worthless. For airlift/tanker guys (and correct me if I'm wrong Fish), those guys log alot of time, but mostly as co-pilot time (as well as total time- I think). And if those poor guys are sent to a UAV post-first or second assignment, they'll either go to the UAV with only copilot time if they haven't upgraded to AC, or go to a UAV with some AC time but maybe no IP or SEFE time.

Whats worse, is if a guy from either community gets a UAV, he NEEDS to stay in for another flying assignment, since if he gets out following UAVs, he's not current on anything flying-wise, and for many jobs THATS a killer.

This is one of the big downsides to UAVs and flying them.
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For most of the tanker/airlift guys, upgrade time is about 1.5-2.5 years into the first assignment. My career has been a little weird, though, because unlike most tanker guys, the bases I was assigned to didn't do much time in the desert. The co's I'm seeing now are deploying a LOT more than I ever did, so they're pulling in the hours pretty well. I've averaged around 300 hours a year over the course of my career thus far (with 2 medium term medical issues that took me out of the cockpit for 3 and 1 months, respectively), but I think our co's and younger ac's are probably topping 400 easily, and maybe 500. They still seem to be upgrading at about the same time, though, so a little more of that time is co-pilot time. Still, a guy who gets a second tour to a UAV, like MikeD said, would need a third tour (but only just barely). If he could make them quick (3 years each, instead of four), he would be able to get out with enough time, even if he were in UAVs for PCS #2. But that is just talking about total time. That second tour as a UAV guy would kill IP and EP time, just like MikeD said.

Fortunately, we're not taking the same kinds of hits in the UAV world as the fighter guys are. There are a few guys who get a UAV, but it's not the norm by a stretch. It seems like most guys are able to pretty easily work three flying tours in a row (non-UAV). It may be three tours in your MWS, or two MWS and something else (trainers, DV airlift, Special Ops...). Of course, that's just lately, and everything goes in cycles. A year from now it may be a little bit, or even completely, different.
 
Why doesn't the Air Force have UAV pilots as a seperate career field? Wouldn't that just save lots of money and maintain pilot proficiency both on the manned and unmanned side?
 
Low_Level_Hell said:
Why doesn't the Air Force have UAV pilots as a seperate career field? Wouldn't that just save lots of money and maintain pilot proficiency both on the manned and unmanned side?
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1. It does...it recently started up the "18X" RPA career field.

2. This was after literally 6-9 years of debate over the issue within the AF. There are a number of issues on both sides of the "dedicated UAV pilot" decision that drove the debate. It's not as clear cut of a decision as it may seem to the casual observer.

Most importantly, in the current conflict it is the RPA operator who is performing the majority of the actual close contact combat from aircraft. Experience is showing that operators who don't have actual "in the seat" experience have a very difficult time understanding the 3-dimensional problem that has to be solved in a Close Air Support Scenario.

There are also some "tribal" issues that have come up, and that is perhaps my biggest beef with the decision.
 
Hacker15e said:
Most importantly, in the current conflict it is the RPA operator who is performing the majority of the actual close contact combat from aircraft. Experience is showing that operators who don't have actual "in the seat" experience have a very difficult time understanding the 3-dimensional problem that has to be solved in a Close Air Support Scenario.
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Yeah but that can be said of any pilot starting out facing their first engagement. I agree experience counts but what's the difference if that's experience is developed in the cockpit or a remote station?
 
Low_Level_Hell said:
Yeah but that can be said of any pilot starting out facing their first engagement. I agree experience counts but what's the difference if that's experience is developed in the cockpit or a remote station?
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The difference is that a new fighter punk goes out as a wingman, on the wing of an experienced flight lead. He doesn't really have to make anything in the way of tactical decisions until he's been a wingman for over a year and a couple hundred hours. He is able to observe and gain the situational awareness first, then later as experience builds he is able to take on the burden of tactical decisionmaking on top of that.
 
Hacker15e said:
The difference is that a new fighter punk goes out as a wingman, on the wing of an experienced flight lead. He doesn't really have to make anything in the way of tactical decisions until he's been a wingman for over a year and a couple hundred hours. He is able to observe and gain the situational awareness first, then later as experience builds he is able to take on the burden of tactical decisionmaking on top of that.
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But doesn't that junior UAV operator have supervision as well. Not to mention all the other players watching the same UAV feed?
 
Low_Level_Hell said:
But doesn't that junior UAV operator have supervision as well. Not to mention all the other players watching the same UAV feed?
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Sure does -- and a former squadronmate of mine who is the Commander at the RPA training unit said that guys coming from non-rated backgrounds require so much supervision that they might as well not even be in the seat. That is is precisely the opposite of a force multiplier.

Again, supervision aside, it's not the same as the experience gained by being eyes-on the target and environment rather than observing it on a screen.
 
Low_Level_Hell said:
But doesn't that junior UAV operator have supervision as well. Not to mention all the other players watching the same UAV feed?
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The bolded part of this is one of the biggest problems with having UAVs, especially ones that employ ordnance. This one fact is why so much micromanagement in UAV employment occurs. IMHO, the AGM-114 was both the best thing, and the worst thing, to happen to the Predator UAVs.
 
There was somebody asking about doing MC-12 flying. I'd think this would be a great way to get to 1500. If you are looking for time, who cares about speed? Heck, aside from the first few, all of the others are brand-spanking new 350s. I flew one aircraft in the service that was younger than me, and it was a trainer.

Mmmmm...new airplane smell. :D
 
The guys going on MC-12 gigs are getting about 400 hours per 6-month deployment.

The down side is that they're probably going to make it a 365 at some point, as well as permanent basing some time soon.
 
Hacker15e said:
The guys going on MC-12 gigs are getting about 400 hours per 6-month deployment.

The down side is that they're probably going to make it a 365 at some point, as well as permanent basing some time soon.
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Is the UAV field now considered a fourth rated field, or is it considered unrated? What type of training does one go through?
 
The tough thing for military guys will be the required multi-time provision and the "difficult operational experience" requirement. I think the minimum multi time required by law will be set at around 300-500 hours. SE fighter guys will struggle to get that.

I wonder what "difficult operational experience" even means. If that turns out to be icing time, then even more military guys can face a difficult road to the airlines.

The ATP wont be that difficult for military. The required multi and difficult operational experience could be.
 
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