Congress agrees to 1500hr min for airlines.

When flights start getting cancelled, so will this policy. Now how about 10 hours rest behind closed doors?
 
FlyingPoke said:
it will now be '60k and beating around in a 172 for 3 years making 30k or less with no upward mobility only to start over again at the bottom of the regional payscale - no thanks'
Click to expand...

Again it should be noted that this is the way it always was except for the 07 hiring boom. Either you went through the military or you grind it out as a CFI - regional - major.
 
chuckles1225 said:
And I think this has been covered in previous threads on this topic but just to be sure...previously hired 121 pilots with less than 1,500 hrs will be grandfathered in when the new rule takes effect...is that correct?
Click to expand...

There is nothing to be grandfathered.

Individuals hired into positions based off of current (at the date of hire) legislation can not be held against a new standard established after their date of hire with a company.

That said, by the time the legislation is active come 2012/2013 (because if I'm not mistaken there is going to be a 2-4 year grace period) there will be very few < 1500TT pilots at any 121 operators.
 
surreal1221 said:
There is nothing to be grandfathered.

Individuals hired into positions based off of current (at the date of hire) legislation can not be held against a new standard established after their date of hire with a company.

That said, by the time the legislation is active come 2012/2013 (because if I'm not mistaken there is going to be a 2-4 year grace period) there will be very few < 1500TT pilots at any 121 operators.
Click to expand...

Good to know, thanks!
 
Hootie said:
When flights start getting cancelled, so will this policy. Now how about 10 hours rest behind closed doors?
Click to expand...

Yes, YES, OH GOD YES!

Before we start pulling up the ladder, lets get the rest rules changed. Enough with varying letters of interps, POIs who think they can override regulations and 135/121 operators who abuse rest rules.

IMO, we don't need some complicated matrix or when duty starts or number of legs past a certain time. 12 hours of duty MAX followed by 12 hours of rest. Duty is defined as ANYTIME the crewmember is responsible to the company. If you have to be available by pager, phone, bat signal or smoke signal IT IS DUTY. Rest is the time spent AT a location suitable for rest. Complete 12 hours of duty and it takes you 2 hours to get to the hotel. No problem, your rest doesn't start until you get into your room. Duty begins as soon as you leave the hotel or suitable rest area.

No more flight time limits, fly as much as you want in 24 hours, 7 days, month, year, etc.
 
Dugie8 said:
IMO, we don't need some complicated matrix or when duty starts or number of legs past a certain time. 12 hours of duty MAX followed by 12 hours of rest. Duty is defined as ANYTIME the crewmember is responsible to the company. If you have to be available by pager, phone, bat signal or smoke signal IT IS DUTY. Rest is the time spent AT a location suitable for rest. Complete 12 hours of duty and it takes you 2 hours to get to the hotel. No problem, your rest doesn't start until you get into your room. Duty begins as soon as you leave the hotel or suitable rest area.

No more flight time limits, fly as much as you want in 24 hours, 7 days, month, year, etc.
Click to expand...

You see the trouble with this is that some of our peers consider layovers time off away from home, so what's it matter if it's 8 hours or 12 hours...fatigue? What's that?

:sarcasm:
 
FlyingPoke said:
Demand will pass supply, and that is when pilots will have the upper hand...
Click to expand...

Uh huh.

Maybe Congress will start looking into people with 300 hours teaching others how to fly and decide that's not enough. 600 hours is arbitrary, which makes it perfect for a federal regulation! Obviously this would decrease the supply of CFIs and force CFI pay to a more livable level. Demand would pass supply, and that is when CFIs would have the upper hand!

:rawk:
 
surreal1221 said:
You see the trouble with this is that some of our peers consider layovers time off away from home, so what's it matter if it's 8 hours or 12 hours...fatigue? What's that?

:sarcasm:
Click to expand...

And you hit a point that proves we are our own worst enemies. The same people that will commute in at midnight for a 5 am show are the same ones to cry about fatigue.

I really feel there should be a check in/out system that the FEDs monitor for duty and rest.
 
Tell me about it.

It's tough to police our peers when our peers could care less about everyone else, much less themselves and their own safety.
 
averettpilot said:
My point is that time has only a small part to play in the matter. I think it's a bit ill conceived to think that a 300 hour pilot isn't CAPABLE of safely performing the duties of FO/SIC. Airlines should make sure they are capable through training and testing and I believe in most instances they do.
Click to expand...

This argument has been beaten to death before but I truly don't think a 300 hour guy (with a few exceptions here and there) is capable of safely performing the duties of FO in a 121 operation. It has nothing to do with training or testing. And besides I have yet to see a training program that accurately simulates real world operations. The FO's primary job is NOT to sit there and learn but that seems like the expectation that has formed over the last few years.
 
Dugie8 said:
And you hit a point that proves we are our own worst enemies. The same people that will commute in at midnight for a 5 am show are the same ones to cry about fatigue.

I really feel there should be a check in/out system that the FEDs monitor for duty and rest.
Click to expand...

Judging by experience I don't think that is the case. I can start the trip on 4-5 hours of sleep the night before, that is not what kills me. What kills me is 3-4 days of that with swapping circadian rhythms.
 
BobDDuck said:
And yes, you can go through the NTSB archives and find plenty of accidents that involve high time crews, but I can also tell you plenty of stories where the only thing keeping the plane I was flying out of the dirt was me because if I wasn't there for some reason the guy in the right seat sure as hell wouldn't have been able to keep the plane in the air. And that was just on a normal operations day. No weather. No fatigue. No MX issues.
Click to expand...

Here is a good one that illustrates your point..

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20081003X17330&key=1

And another good one but not sure if it quite applies:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20011030X02159&ntsbno=NYC02LA013&akey=1

Quote from the brief

"The first officer reported that after college, she was employed by Boeing as an analyst, and then was hired by Mesa Airlines. When hired by Mesa Airlines, her total flight experience was about 400 hours. She was initially employed as a Beech 1900 first officer. At the time of the accident, she had been flying the EMB-145 for about 1 year.

During interviews, both pilots reported that they had not received a jet indoctrination course or any specialized training on swept wing aerodynamics. "
 
wheelsup said:
Judging by experience I don't think that is the case. I can start the trip on 4-5 hours of sleep the night before, that is not what kills me. What kills me is 3-4 days of that with swapping circadian rhythms.
Click to expand...

You may THINK you can, but it isn't about that, it is about what you can actually do.

We still have to work and move the airplane and the company has to have some ability to maximize our work output. I would wager some of the more complex language and negotiating capital (save for pay) is spent on duty and rest rules in most contracts. That right there should be the biggest red flag of all. The regulations should be so iron clad and pilot friendly that contract language addressing it should be almost nil.

12 hours on, 12 hours off. No real circadian problems IF the crew members rest, and don't take the 24 hour layover as an excuse to party.
 
I agree that this will change little.
To hire someone now that they have the magic 1500 hours, if they got those hours burning up a 172 in the right seat, will not change any level of safety.
At the very least, they SHOULD have just made it ATP.
For those thinking pay will change because of it, it won't.
 
FlyingPoke said:
The thought process will no longer be 'Sure its 60k and one year of bad pay, but at least I'm in a shiny jet with a future!'... it will now be '60k and beating around in a 172 for 3 years making 30k or less with no upward mobility only to start over again at the bottom of the regional payscale - no thanks' (sorry that was long, but hopefully it made sense)
Click to expand...

That was the norm not too long ago. I was hired into 121 with 2000 TT, 1500 dual, and ATP mins. That was in 2005.

Not that it matters but the 3 highest time and former 121 guys didn't make it thru their first year. They were all let go for training issues.
 
wheelsup said:
The first day I am fine, I think I know when I am tired or not.
Click to expand...

I don't mean to harp on you wheels, you just illustrate my frustrations.

Fatigue or being tired isn't something we should be "okay" with just because it is the first day or we did it to ourselves. Put aside regulations and such. We owe it to the people in the back to be at the top of our game, be it day one or day 60.


There will always be fatigue. The dynamics of this job dictate it. If we can remove one of those dynamics and adhere to the same rest rules and considerations we want while on tour while coming off days off before tour I think it will give us as a workgroup much more credibility.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top